Taylor Nosakhere: Finding Your Voice in the Labor Room

When the unexpected unfolds during childbirth, how do we navigate the twists and turns with grace and strength? Taylor Nosakhere, birth coach and doula, joins me to share her profound insight into the world of birth and motherhood. This episode peels back the layers of birthing plans gone awry, from aspirations of a serene birth center experience to the stark realities of a hospital transfer, and the sheer resilience it takes to reclaim one's birth journey.

Our conversation ventures into the heart of childbirth, where the best-laid plans often give way to the unforeseen. Taylor recounts her own labor stories, revealing the emotional rollercoaster of stalled contractions, the pivotal decisions like opting for an epidural, and the surprising effects of solitude on labor progression. With openness and vulnerability, we discuss the importance of a strong support system, self-advocacy, and the empowerment that comes from having a clear understanding of the myriad choices in birth care.

This exchange serves as an empowering beacon for mothers and mothers-to-be, emphasizing the significance of aligning with healthcare providers who respect your birthing preferences. We close our dialogue with reflections on the continuous learning journey of parenthood, balancing energies within expanding families, and the importance of confronting our deepest fears. Taylor's stories and wisdom encourage all listening to embrace their strengths and forge their unique paths through the transformative experience of childbirth.

Connect with Taylor:
My podcast ⬇️

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/drivers-seat-moms-podcast/id1682791936

Facebook group⬇️

https://www.facebook.com/groups/869671804276666/

Birth prep starter bundle:
Includes my “start with how you want to feel” journal prompts , options list, and birth plan template ⬇️

https://view.flodesk.com/pages/63484dfa8c93e14e464b92c4

My signature coaching program ⬇️

https://withyouwellnesskc.com/the-crib

Want me as your birth coach? You got it!

I will help you:

☑️identify the source of anxiety you have surrounding birth. 

☑️fill in knowledge gaps to make sure that you are fully informed and confident. 

☑️learn key phrases so you can better communicate with your medical team. 

☑️emotionally process your fears so that they don’t hold power over you

Go to kellyhof.com to book a free 30 minute birth vision call.

Coaching offer

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:28

Hello, today I have with me Taylor Nosacara. Taylor is a prenatal coach, dula a motherhood coach, a catering chef and the host of the podcast Driver's Seat Moms. She is a mother of three kids under six years old, with two on the way, yep twins, second set of twins. Her mission is to help moms let go of the shoulds and supposed tos surrounding birth and motherhood so they can do pregnancy, birth and motherhood their way. Today she's here to share her birth stories and how she balances career and motherhood. Taylor welcome and thank you so much for joining me.

Speaker 2: 1:09

Thank you for having me. I'm excited.

Speaker 1: 1:11

Yeah, I feel like you have a lot that you can share with my listeners and I'm really excited to hear about your birth stories.

Speaker 2: 1:19

Yeah, so, gosh, it's crazy to think back to the first one because that felt like so long ago now. So my oldest son is five and a half and then I have twin boys that are two and a half. So I will tell both of their stories and try not to make them take forever, because I feel like I could tell the four hour version or I could tell the 20 minute version. So my first son I had. So, yes, I am a prenatal coach and a birth Dula. I wasn't prior to my first son being born, but I did have some prior knowledge. So my mom was a Dula for a little bit and a childbirth educator, and so I had a level of awareness prior to getting pregnant that there's options and there's things to research. And I feel like I went into that pregnancy a little bit of a step ahead than some moms, just in the sense of most moms are like I have no idea what I don't know, whereas I kind of knew what I didn't know. But I did, I still didn't know it. So when I got pregnant it happened a lot faster than we anticipated. We were not trying, not not trying, and just we're like we'll start trying in August and I think I was pregnant by July. So I immediately wanted to know everything about everything, and at the time I did not even know how to listen to a podcast, but I'd heard of them. This was in 2017. So I was like kind of late to the podcast game and I googled how do I listen to a podcast? And then I just started binging them and learning everything about everything, and as I was doing so, I realized that midwifery care was more the route that I wanted to go, and there's one birth center in the city where I lived there's actually two, but they were it was two locations of the same birth center and so that's what I chose. I was doing all of my prenatal care through the birth center, with three midwives that rotate, and I was really excited about that. I ended up hiring a doula who was a friend of my mom's, who was also a massage therapist, and she trained with the doula who was my mom's doula for my younger sisters. So we kind of knew her already and I was feeling really good.

Speaker 2: 3:41

I mean, the pregnancy was fairly easy. I feel like I got really lucky in that regard. I was teaching yoga at the time, so I taught yoga throughout my whole pregnancy. I did power yoga throughout my whole pregnancy and then 39 ish weeks rolls around and at the birth center they have a protocol in place where you cannot well, you cannot deliver there if you're prior to 37 weeks or past 42 weeks. So you know, 39, 40 weeks rolls around and I'm starting to get nervous that I'm not going to be able to deliver at the birth center. I knew that first time moms typically go past 40 weeks. Due dates are guest dates. I know those things, but still, according to their protocols, I was starting to get nervous.

Speaker 2: 4:33

So at 41 weeks we started doing all the things to push my body into labor and it was extremely stressful. I look back on that week and when I think about things that I would change about my birth, it really is that week and that stress, and I don't know that I would necessarily change that part in retrospect, because the rule was the rule at the birth center. But I do wish I would have explored more options outside of just simply, while we're kicking you out of our care, you have to have a hospital birth, which is not really what I wanted. So we, like I said, did all the things I did castor oil, I think twice I was on the breast pump a lot. I had six Foley bulb attempts, I want to say in five days, and so I did two tries in one day. I was also in castor oil that day, so it was just extremely uncomfortable and I did all of those things not so much from like an evidence based place of really wanting to be done, being pregnant, or feeling like my baby was not safe or I was unhealthy, but really from this place of like I want to have this baby at the birth center, and ultimately, none of it worked. None of it worked.

Speaker 2: 6:04

My body was not ready and at 41 and six we made the call to transfer because I wasn't in labor yet, so that they typically will transfer you with a midwife that they have at the birth center and she has privileges at the hospital. Well, she was unavailable, and so they gave me two options. You can transfer to hospital A and just get whoever's on call, or you can transfer to hospital B, which was the option that I liked, less as far as hospital goes, but with an OB who is very midwife like and everybody loves her. She's great. And so I went ahead and chose that. It was a teaching hospital, which I didn't love the idea of like having students around and but I was like, but I'll go for her because everybody loves her.

Speaker 2: 6:56

So I went in at 10 o'clock PM, right exactly at 42 weeks, I think yeah, it would have been 42 weeks and they gave me the impression that I was going to meet the doctor that night. Well, she wasn't there and they're like, oh well, we met, for teen was here and I was like, oh well, that's not the same thing. So I call my midwives, crying, like on the emergency line. I'm like this isn't what I thought it was going to be. I felt like from the second I walked in the door I had to become in like defense mode, which was not what I wanted, and that was really tough because a lot of the things in my birth plan I knew I wasn't going to have to really ask for or advocate for in the birth center, but they were things that were not standard in this hospital, which is part of why I didn't choose that hospital to begin with.

Speaker 2: 7:51

Even simple things, little things, were getting under my skin which, looking back, I wish I wouldn't have let them, but I was just kind of angry to have to be there and so I wasn't necessarily making friends and finally got settled. They told me I was going to meet the doctor in the morning. I got a cervical ripener. I got a servidil, which I had to fight for because they really, really wanted me to start with cytotech and I really did not want to. So finally got them to order the servidil and got the servidil. And my night nurse was absolutely phenomenal. She was so sweet and gentle and let me sleep and came in so quietly and she was like okay, this is going to be okay.

Speaker 2: 8:47

The next day at around 9am I met the doctor, loved her Great first impression, made me feel so good about things. She's like, yeah, go ahead and eat, do your thing. Like I have clinic, I'll come back and check in. If you need anything, call me. And so things were kind of moving and grooving along. Contractions weren't really happening for me.

Speaker 2: 9:13

So ultimately we did choose to move to adding in pitocin to the mix because I wasn't having contractions and I will say too, I was not super comfortable at the time, going too much past 42 weeks. So, as a lot of you know, as you know, and some of you listening might know that risks do increase as you go further past 42 weeks and as a first time mom I wasn't really comfortable with the risks of going past 42 weeks, so that was also part of my motivation to get things going. I do wish retrospectively, I would have learned a little bit more about that actual risk and how that risk pertained to me specifically and what the actual numbers were. Maybe I would have felt a little bit more comfortable with that risk, but at the time I wasn't, and so we started pitocin and it just wasn't doing anything. I think we ended up cranking it all the way up and ultimately throughout that next day. So this is Friday.

Speaker 2: 10:27

It was an emotional roller coaster. I was fine and then I would have an emotional breakdown and it felt like throughout the course of the day my doctor got less and less inviting, like less patient, less. The things that I felt about her when I first met her that morning kind of started to fade throughout the day and it sucked because everybody told me she's very midwife, like she's not going to push interventions on you, she's the most natural OB in the city. And as the day progressed I was just starting to feel like that was not the case, she really wanted to break my water because she wanted to put an internal monitor on because the pitocin was so high. So we wanted to make sure that my contractions were doing what they were supposed to do and baby was tolerating them Okay.

Speaker 2: 13:10

So eventually I think that was like in the evening, friday evening I finally allowed her to break my water and I vividly remember a conversation that just stands out as being one of the traumatic parts of my birth experience, which was her asking me like we sat down by the window I remember it so vividly my husband was sitting there and my mom and Dula I'm pretty sure we're like across the room and she's like well, what's your end game? And I was just so shook by that question. I was like what do you mean? Like my end game is to have a baby. I don't understand the question. And at the time I was still looking great, my blood pressure was good, like I was handling things fine and my baby's heart rate was fine, like everything was fine. So I was very confused by this. And when my husband kind of started to side with her of like well, she just wants to know, like what's the plan, what's the end game, and I was like I don't know, be here for four days until I have a baby. If I have to, if I'm fine and my baby's fine, I will do this as long as it takes, and I don't think she likes that answer. And so finally I got my husband to understand where I was coming from and all in all we stopped pitocin, I wanna say, because we had cranked it up all the way, broke my water, put the internal monitor in and then restarted the pitocin. And the timeline gets a little fuzzy for me, but thankfully my mom and my doula were there and they were helping me through all this emotional stuff. I don't know what I would have done without them and my husband.

Speaker 2: 14:58

But the next step after that was things were getting just really, really hard. It's weird because I kind of blacked this part out and I had to actually like ask a lot of family and friends, the people that were there, what happened during this time, because I truly don't remember. But eventually I think I ended up asking for a C-section because I was so. I know I was physically tired, I know I'm sure the pitocin contractions were getting to me, but I kind of don't even remember that, I just remember the emotional pressure of I just don't wanna be here. I feel like it's an uphill battle and feel like I'm having to advocate for everything that I want. I don't wanna be here and I just want it to be done, and my doula recommended that I get an epidural so that I could just take it. So after going in the bathroom and crying and talking to my husband about it because I really didn't want a medicated birth I ultimately was like okay, yes, like that's probably better than just opting for a C-section at this time.

Speaker 2: 16:07

Because one thing I guess I haven't mentioned is at the time I wasn't progressing very much. My contractions were happening, but I think 24 or more hours in I was still only at like a five, and I think I had been a five for the last 12 hours or something. I just was not progressing. Knowing what I know now, I'm like baby was probably in a funky position. I probably should have done some spinning babies, tried some different positions, but at the time I think I just was in like advocacy mode I don't even know how to explain it and so I got the epidural and it was pretty early Saturday morning and I had fallen asleep finally and the nurse came in and I loved my daytime nurses that day as well.

Speaker 2: 16:55

They came in and I could hear them through my sleep, kind of talking to my mom, saying baby's heart rate looks great, contraction pattern looks great. You know now that we've bumped the toast and back up, everything's looking great. And they left the room and at the time my doula had gone home to sleep and my husband was in the car sleeping, I think like in the parking garage. And then my doctor walks in and she my mom is sitting next to the bed, on the other side of the bed and she very gently like squats by me and quietly is like wakes me up from this, like dead sleep nap that I so desperately needed. So that was like first strike, don't wake me up. And she says to me so the contractions aren't really doing what we want them to do, they're not really that effective, so we really need to think about a C-section at this point.

Speaker 2: 17:54

And this was around noon on Saturday morning and had she said that and the nurses not just said what they said, I probably would have gotten a C-section, to be completely honest, and in that moment of super vulnerability, extreme exhaustion, I said yes. I was like, yeah, yeah, okay. Like I was literally half asleep when she was asking me this question, which, looking back, just like pisses me off. But thank God my mom was standing right there. And my mom says, well, are you sure that's what you want? Like maybe we should get your husband in here, maybe we should get your doula back in here and like talk about this. And the doctor completely disregarded my mom, didn't even look at her and just kept talking to me and I said, yeah, actually that's a good idea. Like I was kind of starting to wake up out of my dead asleep nap and I was like, yes, let's get him in here, let's chat about this.

Speaker 2: 18:49

So my doctor left and my husband got in, the doula got in and my aunt who was there she had come in from Des Moines I'm in Kansas City she had come down from Iowa and she was gonna encapsulate my placenta for me and she showed up at the hospital cause at this point we're like bring him the backup. And she had been a doula for years. And so she showed up and I just like all of a sudden had all of these people around me that were like you're fine, your babies are fine, like you've got your nap, you've got the epidural. Now let's do this. Like we can do this. We can still very much have a vaginal birth. This is totally still on the table. And I was like, okay, let's do it.

Speaker 2: 19:32

So the doctor walked back in and I said to her okay, we're gonna keep going, we're gonna keep trying and getting different positions and do all the things. And she was pissed. So she said to me and I might misquote this a little bit, but it was very close to this so you're actually gonna do something now, because you haven't been doing anything for the last however many hours. So I think she thought I wasn't doing anything. Oh, I had actually asked to turn the pitocin off a second time when I was waiting for the epidural. When I finally agreed to the epidural, I had asked can we please turn the pitocin off while I wait for the anesthesiologist? Because if I'm gonna get the epidural I might as well just wait to have this pitocin on. So I think she knew I had turned the pitocin off twice. Once was my choice, once was because they were gonna break my water and then I guess I had taken a nap and that was not enough for her. So she kind of huffed off in this angry mood. I'm like, well, you're actually gonna do something now. So, okay, I mean, I guess.

Speaker 2: 20:40

And throughout, like I said, from the time I met her at 9 am the morning before to then, she had gotten progressively less nice and her bedside manner had gotten worse, and every single time she came in the room her vibe was just bringing this negative energy. It was just very visceral, for me at least, of this is not the energy I want. In the room I would feel myself tensing up, which is obviously increasing cortisol and decreasing oxytocin and slowing down labor. And I said to the nurse I don't want her, she cannot come back. And my mom was even like, if you needed a C-section, I wouldn't really want her to do it, cause at this point she's kind of like mad at you, because I'm pretty sure she was called to be there. She had to stay until I had the baby because she was the doctor associated with the birth center, so I don't think she could just leave when her 12 hours was up, I think she actually had to like stay, and so she was pissed and I said she's not allowed back in my room. And the nurse was like, oh okay, well, we'll keep her away and then, when you're ready to push, we'll just bring her in right at the end and I said, absolutely fucking not, she's not allowed back in here. Find me who else is here, like I don't care who it is, it's not her. And that felt really really good in that moment and I think I had like a weight lifted off with me to just know that she wasn't coming back, which sucks. It sucks so hard because she was literally the reason that I chose that hospital in the beginning, and so we just kept doing the do with the epiduralin. But everybody was helping me get into really good positions on the peanut ball and even doing some hands and knees on the bed. I had a lot of help.

Speaker 2: 22:21

I was keeping my dosage really, really low on that epidural and I got to the point where I was like I need to poop. But I didn't know this at the time, but looking back now it wasn't the baby is coming poop, like feeling that you know we in this space are like, yes, you're so excited, you need to poop. I just felt kind of uncomfortable and I knew that I just kind of needed to clear out I think I needed to like clear out before baby could come. And I think I just intuitively knew that and, of course, because I had the epidural, they were like well, it's okay, you can just do it. Like we'll bring you a bedpan. And I was like no, no, no, that's not gonna work for me. I need to go to the toilet. And they were like we can't do that, you have an epidural. So my mom even asked can we get like a bedside commode that we can help her onto? And I was like that's not really what I want, but I guess, if that's all you guys can give me Cause, I also felt, I think, at that point, like maybe my body was craving privacy, like I just needed to like lock myself in the bathroom or something, and that was unconsciously there.

Speaker 2: 23:24

So they were like we'll go ask. They came back no, we can't do the bedside commode. I'm like okay. So I left, I showed my mom, I was like I put my feet on the bed and I like was lifting my hips and I'm like look, mom, I can move. Look at this. And I'm not recommending this to anyone. And I'm sure, as a labor and delivery nurse, you are like freaking out as I tell this story, I started to get off the bed and crawl to the bathroom. So I literally my mom's like what? Are you?

Speaker 2: 23:52

doing. I'm like I'm crawling, you won't help me walk there, I'm going to fucking crawl. But I'm going to the toilet and the nurses rush in and they're like, okay, well, like, let us like unhook you, like you're hooked up to shit. And I'm like, okay, that's valid. Like do what you need to do, unhook me. They take me into the bathroom, they help me get on the toilet, and then everybody's like in the bathroom and I'm like, well, you guys have to leave. I can't have you all in here or else this is pointless. So I think they gave me maybe like two or three minutes by myself, and I mean I'm sure they were like all right outside the door, but it was enough. I don't even think that I pooped, but I just like I let a lot go. It must have been emotion, it must have just been like pelvic floor tension, maybe being able to just sit on the toilet. I don't know what, but that three minutes in the bathroom, plus, I think, firing my doctor, changed the game for me. And when I got back to the bed and this had to have been mid to late afternoon on Saturday, very soon after that I got checked I was dilated to seven, and that was the first time. Like there's a photo of my husband. He's like that was the first time that I I was like, oh my God, this is happening. I'm actually gonna have this vaginal birth. I'm past a five, finally.

Speaker 2: 25:09

So we kept doing all the positions, all the things. Eventually I got to a nine and then I think I had a cervical lip potentially, and we were doing some practice pushing and at this point there was literally so many people there and I'm not even talking like hospital staff. I think my mother-in-law has shown up, I think my sister had shown up Like she had come back because she was there in early labor and then she had come back. I did not even know. I don't think that all these people were there at this point and we had a big corner room and they almost kicked a lot of the people out, but they ended up where, like we'll just squish everybody in my corner oh, my birth photographer. I had a birth photographer that showed up, like literally thinking back on it, and as a doula now who's been in many hospital rooms, I'm like I don't know how the hell there was that many people in a room but they all like squished into the corner and I finally got to start pushing and I started on my side, ended up on my back.

Speaker 2: 26:09

I remember thinking I don't really want to push in my back, but at the time I just did not care and at that time I was extremely exhausted, couldn't feel much, don't think I really knew how to push and I ended up needing like oxygen mask in between pushing just because it was so strenuous. I think my baby had to have been in there in a really, really weird position. Well, he actually did have a nuchal hand, so his hand was by his face and maybe that was part of it. But I'm sure he was like his head wasn't flexed or he was asymptotic or something I don't know. But my husband said they were just like pouring lube down there and like you were just obviously needing the oxygen. Everybody was there helping me. I remember my husband saying get after it. And I'm thinking like why the fuck would you say that? But I'm like I guess that's what I needed to hear in the moment or whether it was or wasn't. That's what he was saying. And then, yeah, he eventually was born.

Speaker 2: 27:05

I think I pushed for about 30 minutes but it felt like forever. I remember at one point his head was starting to come out and they were like, do you wanna feel his head? And I felt it and I said it's so squishy. And my husband said one of the first things he thought when he finally came out was oh man, I'm gonna have to love that kid, cause his head was so misshapen and I'm like, dude, their heads go back to normal. Like how did he not know that? Like the hat was, like he had this huge dome head in the hat, like barely even sat on the end of it, and he was just like, oh man, I'm gonna have to love that kid. We did not know if there was a boy or a girl. I, we really really thought it was a girl and my husband goes damn, he has a fat sack and I'm like, okay, so it's not a girl. So these are the things, that, the joys of the things my husband said.

Speaker 2: 27:59

And he did not come out breathing. I don't think I knew I wanted skin to skin. He was kind of more on my abdomen, cause the umbilical cord length, I think, and wasn't breathing. So about a minute later cause I wanted to delay the clamping as much as possible, and at that point I think I was just in such relief to get him out that anything that I wanted at that point just kind of went out the window. I was like I, he's just here.

Speaker 2: 28:26

And I remember, even though he wasn't breathing, and they ended up cutting the cord and taking him to the warmer, I remember not feeling any worry. I remember just laying there feeling like he's going to be fine. This is, this is totally fine. Like sometimes babies just have a lot of fluid. It takes them a minute. I remember not being worried at all and I kind of want to wrap up this story but like I did end up having a retained placenta, a hemorrhage, and I ended up going back through a DNC about 30 minutes after he was born, probably because I think it was a multitude of factors. They were doing a lot of manual traction, which I did not want. They actually pulled the umbilical cord off my placenta and I had had Potosin for a long fucking time over a day and a half and so I'm sure my uterus was just like done and so wasn't clamping down. So I did go back for a DNC. But I also just remember in that moment just not feeling worried. And it's so interesting because, even though you might consider some of those things traumatic you hemorrhaged and you went back for a DNC None of my trauma that is associated with that birth comes from that.

Speaker 2: 29:39

It all comes from those conversations where I felt like I wasn't being seen or heard by my doctor and even, for in a few moments, by my husband, when I felt like I was having to advocate for myself in moments where I didn't want to, when I felt like people who should have been on my side were on my side. Those are the things that I look back on and have feelings about, whereas the blood loss and things like that I'm trying to like yeah, that was probably traumatic for everyone else that was watching, but it wasn't really for me. And my mom at the time was a lactation consultant. She's an IBCLC and because we had done so much pumping prior to labor to try to get labor started, we had collected some colostrum and we had brought it with us, so my mom was able to give him colostrum While I was back there for the DNC. We have some really cute pictures of that where, like, my husband is skin to skin with him and she is feeding like syringe, feeding him drops of colostrum so we didn't have to supplement. When I came back, she was getting him latched on to me, even though my husband said I looked dead, like I was white as a ghost and not able to breastfeed him. She did all of it. She's like maneuvering him in my boob and all of it.

Speaker 2: 30:51

So I was so grateful for that, and I think recovery from that was pretty hard, like that first week, just because I had lost so much blood. I ended up getting an iron IV but I did not need a blood transfusion. So if that gives any context to how much blood I lost, I guess it wasn't enough to need a transfusion or I just didn't need it. At one point, I think the doctor was up to her elbow in my uterus prior to going back for the DNC, and so I'm really glad I had an epidural for that part, because I've heard women that have retained placentas that don't have epidural say that that's worse than the child births for sure.

Speaker 2: 31:28

So that was my first experience, and so it led to a lot of reasons why I do the work I do now, not from this place of I wanna save women, or I think some doulas get into it for a little bit of the wrong reasons and I never, ever had the intention of bringing my trauma like into my work or into another mom's birth space, but it more so came from this place of holy shit. I learned so much throughout my pregnancy and birth process that literally my friends don't know the mom I talk to doesn't know. Like people don't know these options, people don't know they can fire their doctor, people don't know they can ask for things. They don't know, they just don't know. And the uphill battle that I faced I was just like I have to help women be able to navigate these choices. So, yeah, I don't know if you wanna touch on any of that before I made this.

Speaker 1: 32:29

I was writing down a lot of things, so a couple of things I wrote down and probably you'll touch on this later. But I feel like what you're communicating was that your focus at the beginning was delivering at the birth center was the goal, and that that may have been a big source of the stress. And then I'm assuming that, because you've learned since then how to frame your expectations and plan your birth, you now probably help people plan for all of the contingencies at this point in order to eliminate that stress.

Speaker 2: 32:59

Yeah, that is definitely something we work on. We talk about different things that could happen, but more so because it's impossible to go down every single rabbit hole that could happen. Part of my framework is starting with how you want to feel, and so we go through this entire list of journaling prompts. We talk about fears, we talk about preconceived notions, we talk about how do you want the experience to feel and how can we get back to those feelings, no matter what the circumstances are.

Speaker 2: 33:30

So no matter what curveballs get thrown your way, how do we get back to those feelings? So, if plans change, if circumstances arise, you can remember, okay, well, this is how I want to feel in this moment. So this is the choice I'm gonna make so that I can feel that way, if that makes the most sense.

Speaker 1: 33:48

Take back control yeah control what you can Exactly yeah, yeah, I think everybody focuses on the wrong part of control.

Speaker 1: 33:56

And so then and it sounded like I mean so kind of this goes into the conversation that your doctor had with you that kind of led to her not coming back to the room.

Speaker 1: 34:05

Well, the first one, the one where she wanted to rupture your membranes before you were ready, I feel like just what from what I heard from you is, had that been explained a little bit better, you may have been more open to that option. When we say what is your end game, that is a little bit threatening. So a little bit of explanation as to the thought process of why we might be going down that route and what the other options are and how we can continue to proceed towards a vaginal birth would have been better. And also just my assumption, like you said, that she's a private practice and wanting to get out of there. I feel like if you're a private practice provider, you might wanna be a little bit more cognizant of those conversations and have some backup plans as well, Because rushing people into interventions just so you can get home isn't what you sign up for as a private provider.

Speaker 2: 35:01

And that's what it felt like. I felt like they were talking to me in circles, and the reason why they couldn't give me a straight answer is because the straight answer would have been you're just taking too long, and that was not good enough for me.

Speaker 1: 35:13

Yeah, and I don't know how the pay structure works, but I think that they get paid for deliveries. So she probably wasn't exactly happy with having to be there and not being paid or getting call pay or something ridiculous. Or maybe she was on salary or something where, just like, the pay structure makes it so that providers don't wanna be there waiting for someone to deliver for days. But that's how the body works sometimes. So when you had your servidil out, do you remember how dilated you were when they started the pitocin?

Speaker 2: 35:45

I think I was probably. Oh my God, you know what I totally missed. I also had a cook balloon placed.

Speaker 1: 35:53

Oh, okay, so they did that and they were able to. You were dilated enough. Well, you were always dilated enough to get that in, because you did that before right.

Speaker 2: 36:01

Yeah, after five attempts, or after six attempts, they finally got the fully bull bin at the midwives office. So when I went in I was like a centimeter dilated. They did the servidil and then they placed a cook balloon. Oh my gosh, I can't believe I forgot. And so the cook balloon fell out around three centimeters and then I think I must have been around after four or four when they started pitocin.

Speaker 1: 36:22

Okay, I was gonna say if it was too early it was never gonna happen, but you were a mechanical dilated three or four, so it takes a while. Some of the things that came up for me when you were talking about the pitocin not working at first and then having to stop and then start again did you feel like you're contracting, or was it maybe just like? I don't know. This is this thing that nurses do when the pitocin's not working, we just get a new bag. It just seems like maybe they forgot the pitocin, like the bag that they mixed with pitocin. Maybe the manufacturer forgot to actually put the pitocin in.

Speaker 2: 36:55

Yeah, no, I maybe. Once I got up around like 15, I was starting to feel contractions. But I remember there was a good solid three hours of probably being on pitocin where I don't think I felt much of anything, did not have an epic earlier, was not feeling contractions. They actually asked to check me again and I was like why, I promise you I have not dilated, like nothing is happening. And they're like you know, and they just kind of like kept pushing the vaginal check and finally I was like fine, check me had not dilated, I'm still a five and I'm like I told you like I feel nothing, there's nothing happening. So there's definitely a chance. I'm like maybe they did forget it.

Speaker 1: 37:49

Or maybe it was just like they didn't put the right dose or something in Cause.

Speaker 2: 37:52

yeah they cranked me all the way up to I think it was 20 or whatever the max is that's allowed there, and then that's when they're like we can't crank it up anymore without the intern.

Speaker 1: 38:02

Right. Yeah, that's pretty standard practice, but I think that could have been framed a little bit differently. I'm curious have you had patients that that has happened to and you've had maybe a different opinion? Now that you, what specifically?

Speaker 2: 38:13

has happened to.

Speaker 1: 38:15

So that maybe they get to 20 of pitocin and they're offering the internals and the rupture of membranes. I wonder if you've had a different experience with that.

Speaker 2: 38:23

I'm trying to think if I've had any clients that have had that happen, but I honestly don't think I have. I feel like the pitocin eventually starts working, or or even like if they break their water.

Speaker 2: 38:35

Yeah, I counsel clients about breaking the water differently if they have an epidural than if they don't. Cause my mom, I want to avoid an epidural. I counsel them over the fact that, like, once you break the water, these contractions are going to get more intense and so if you're wanting to stay unmedicated, you might want to avoid them breaking your water and then my mom's with epidurals already. I just let them know that, like, breaking the water could help. It also might not help and it might put you on a time clock and it's just good to know. And if you're poor enough along and babies low enough, especially like a bulgy bag, like breaking the water might actually we might have a baby in an outbreak, you know, versus you're dilated to a five baby's still high in the pelvis.

Speaker 2: 39:23

I don't really feel like breaking the water. It's not wise, it's not really going to help you right now. Yeah, that's what they want to do, because that's kind of their next step. They don't have anything else to offer you. But you don't have to say yes.

Speaker 1: 39:36

Right. So then you had the Potosin break, and then they broke your water.

Speaker 2: 39:40

Yeah, I think it was like we've cranked it all the way up, but we're going to turn it off, break your water and restart. Okay, that makes sense. Break your water and turn the monitor on and then restart.

Speaker 1: 39:52

So that we know that Potosin's doing something, doing something exactly. And where was your baby's head in the pelvis, do you know? Did they tell you before they broke your water? They probably didn't tell you, I don't remember.

Speaker 2: 40:02

They may have told me and I just have no idea. I do really think that like some spinning babies, probably some lunging, I was changing positions and doing stuff like on the birth ball and stuff, but I don't think I was doing any well.

Speaker 1: 40:18

I might have been doing like asymmetrical type of movement at that point I just don't really Well, but you had a compound presentation, so anything you did was still going to be a challenge.

Speaker 2: 40:28

Yeah, and I and at the time, spinning babies wasn't really very well known about they actually came and did a training here in 2019 that I attended as the only non-birth worker there, and my doula was also there. So I'm sure there was like aha moments for both of us of like, oh man, how do we know this information when I was having my baby. Yeah, we would have used it, but we didn't know.

Speaker 1: 40:53

Yeah same, you don't know what you don't know.

Speaker 2: 40:56

We don't.

Speaker 1: 40:57

Well, let's see, there's a lot of things that I wanna that you said that I wanna touch on. But let's move on to the next, because, wow, we could just we could go down a lot of rabbit holes. All right, so baby number two, well, actually, two and three, two and three.

Speaker 2: 41:14

So the conception story is a little bit funny. I did not. So my son. He started preschool or sorry, like daycare when he was around 15 months, and this was August of 2019. And then in March, the world shut down and he got sent home with me and I was trying to build a business and work part-time and had just gotten into a rhythm with my schedule and was like, okay, now I'm home with a toddler who's extremely needy.

Speaker 2: 41:46

We always knew we wanted more kids, but I just had this feeling of like I don't think I'm ever gonna be ready.

Speaker 2: 41:52

We had talked about starting to try again in August, so we'd have another April, may baby, and it was just like, or I guess maybe start a little earlier, I don't know, I can't do math and I was just like I'm not gonna be ready. I ended up going to an energy worker who does a little bit of massage and acupuncture and she I had seen her before and she gave me a reading that was basically like you are making your decisions out of fear and you need to not make your decisions out of fear, and there is this female energy that's ready to be yours when you're ready to have her and I was like holy shit, this means I'm about to get pregnant with a girl. I need to just let go of fear, get pregnant now, like it'll be fine. I'm just scared of being a mom of two kids, and so I was supposed to start my period in three days. So I'm like it's okay, don't pull out, because you know that was our birth control method at the time. And.

Speaker 2: 42:49

I got pregnant and so that was summer of 2020. And we were all in lockdown. I was not connecting with the pregnancy. I think a lot of moms maybe they got pregnant around that time. We're just struggling emotionally and so I knew I knew before I even got pregnant that I wanted a home birth. This time I was like, unfortunately, the birth center in my area it has all these restrictions on it and if I go past 42 weeks again like I'm not dealing with that, so I'm gonna go straight to a home birth.

Speaker 2: 43:22

My midwife was actually working with a home birth midwife Cause, again, she's an IBCLC and she's an RN, so she was doing like newborn visits for this midwife and I was like, okay, great, I met her, loved her, hired her and at around nine weeks I went in to the first prenatal and we were gonna throw on the Doppler. But I was like you know, I just am not really connecting with this pregnancy and I just feel like something is wrong. I was just having a lot of worry for no reason and she had just gotten this new tool called the butterfly, which is an ultrasound, a handheld ultrasound little thing where she could see the image on her phone. She's like I just got this. Do you want me to look, just so we can like ease some of your anxiety. And I was like, yes, please. So I lay down and I can see out as a corner of my eye, two sacs, I can see it and she goes um, taylor and, mind you, like she knows my mom, she has this relationship with my mom, my mom's student, right there, my mom can see it and I'm like what? And my mom's like I think you're scaring her. Tell her something. She's like Taylor, I think you're having twins.

Speaker 2: 44:35

And my husband just like belly laughs and I have this on video. There's a real I posted on my Instagram. You can go watch it and just like straight up belly laughs. He had been joking about it. Actually, he had been joking that we were gonna have twin girls and he's like bring my girls to me. Like he would say things like that that I'm just like stop it, we're not having twins, we don't have twins in our family, like we're not having twins. And so that was a huge shock at nine weeks, probably less of a shock than the people that find out at like 20 weeks or 30 something weeks.

Speaker 2: 45:07

But I very quickly was like in logistics mode Cause at the time I was already a doula and I was like what do I do? Like, can I birth with you? Can you still be my midwives? And because I'm in the Kansas Missouri area, in our state you can. Midwives do have legal privileges to attend twin births, v-backs, breech births, unlike a lot of states. So she's like, yes, but I've never personally done twins before. She had a twin mom. At the time she was due a few months before me.

Speaker 2: 45:42

So we very quickly looped in another midwife team in the area who had a lot more experience with twins. Even though my midwife had taken training, she had never attended one, or at least been the lead midwife on one, and so that was the plan. I had her plus another midwife team and we just moved through with care like normal, honestly Well. So she told me she wanted to have me have congruent care with an MFM in the area, which is maternal fetal medicine doctor, which is like a high risk pregnancy specialist, and so she sent me to her. I had my first scan with her at 17 weeks and this doctor knew that I was planning a home birth. Like she was chatting with my midwife, she was sending all my records to my midwife. I don't think she loved the idea, but she was not ever rude about it or made me feel stupid about it or anything like that. And so I had my first scan with her at 17 weeks and then I did monthly scans up until gosh it was probably like 32-ish, 34-ish and then I started going weekly, for maybe it was even a little bit later than that. I started going weekly for biophysical profiles and non-stress tests for the babies. They were doing growth scans, maybe every month, mainly to check that they were not stealing nutrients from each other, I think, even though they did have their own sacs, their own placentas, which is called di-di twins, which is supposedly the quote unquote like safest type to have. And so they were doing great.

Speaker 2: 47:20

We were doing all the scans, we were doing all the biophysical profiles, the non-stress tests, and at around gosh 34 weeks probably it was apparent and we were far enough along, and maybe prior to this even that my baby A, every scan she kept qualifying him as transverse, which essentially means sideways, so you have head down, butt down or feet down, which is breach, and then transverse, which is like off to the side. So his butt was always near my left hip so he was like semi-breach but off to the side, and so in the earlier scans we just kind of left it alone. I was in chiropractic care. I was doing minimal things to really change much of that outside of chiropractic care. We're just like, oh, he'll shift, and once it got a little further along and we're like, okay, he's definitely butt down and he's definitely butt off to the side.

Speaker 2: 48:17

We chatted with the other midwife team who had experience with twins and they also had a decent amount of experience with breach as well, and my midwife, as well as this other midwife, had both taken the reteach breach trainings. They had been in touch with an OBI out of California, dr Stuart Fishbein, who is very, very well known for twins and breach and his expertise in that, and so they had both trained with him and were in actually communication with him throughout this. A little bit as far as what's safe, what's not safe, proper breach position versus the position my baby was in, which was like not a proper breach position, he was off to the side, and so at that time, probably around 34 weeks, I went hard in the paint like trying to get this baby to just center. I did not expect him to flip, because he was one of two in there and his brother, funny enough, every single scan was in a different position. Like his head. That baby flipped every single week Like he was just all over the place, whereas this baby was just like stuck, he was just there. So I did more chiropractic and I did some pretty intense body work with like a Mayan abdominal massage therapist who did like some milifacial work, some deep tissue making space in the abdomen, did a lot of spinning baby stuff, did some stuff with acupuncture just to really make space, not never expecting him to flip but just hoping he would center. And I want to say, at around 38 weeks I decided that I wanted to add in collaborative care with an OB because I knew that this might end up at the hospital and I wanted to establish care with someone who was one doctor in the city who we knew of who would attend a vaginal breach birth and unfortunately there's no hospitals in the area Well, that might not be true now who have a green light protocol for a vaginal breach birth when it's planned.

Speaker 2: 50:31

Unfortunately there might be one actually, but this doctor had written one and he just said they were waiting for it to be green lighted, which of course wasn't gonna happen by the time I had my babies. But he's like let's chat. So we sat down for a meeting. He did an ultrasound he's like baby's breach, which to me was like the best news in the world because I'm like he's not transverse but was over in the cervix. That was great news. And that doctor was kind of like I'll be around if you need me, like I'm like hopefully I don't see you, hopefully I don't ever see you again. And so we were all really thrilled about that.

Speaker 2: 51:08

And so he was breach from about 37, 38 weeks on and I went in for my biophysical profile and my non-stress test with my maternal fetal medicine doctor at the 38 week mark as well. I think the weeks all blend together, so it's so frequent and I remember it was either her or the tech saying we recommend delivery, that's our recommendation. We know you're not your main provider, but that's our recommendation. And of course, to them that meant have a C-section, because they're not going to induce you with a breach baby. Their hospitals don't provide vaginal breach birth as an option. So to them that meant schedule a C-section at 38 weeks, which I was absolutely not gonna do so, sent me on my way.

Speaker 2: 51:58

I show back up for the following week, because at this point I was going weekly.

Speaker 2: 52:01

I show back up at 39 weeks and the tech says, wow, we're kind of surprised to see you today, cause we recommended delivery last week.

Speaker 2: 52:11

And I was like I didn't say this out loud but in my head I'm like, yeah, I recommended delivery to these babies too, but like they didn't listen, I don't know what to tell you. And so the tech was kind of, as she's doing the scan, talking to me about like well, what's your plan? And again I'm having like flashback moments like what's your end game? And I'm like, oh geez. And she so, when she asked me that question, I was like, well, my plan is to take it day by day and my plan is to use the information that we're gathering today to make a choice. And so my baby one of them almost didn't pass that test with all the points that they can pass with, because he didn't give one extra punch or one extra kick, like he didn't give it until the very end of the 30 minute timeframe and I thought for sure she was gonna fail me on purpose. I was like I bet you. She saw something that she just didn't say.

Speaker 2: 53:04

And that was just me being cynical and mad, thinking she was gonna fail me on purpose, but ultimately they passed. They did everything they were supposed to do. I got a 10 out of 10. So eight points on the biophysical profile and two on the non-stress test and went on my way and I told my midwife when I left I can't go back there. They already want me to like have had these babies. I don't feel comfortable going back there for my next scan. So my 40 week scan, I went to one of those imaging places that does like 3D imaging and they did my scan. They don't have the ability to do non-stress tests there, but they were able to do the biophysical profile, which was enough for us. They passed again at 39 weeks. So yes, I'm still pregnant at 39 weeks.

Speaker 2: 53:50

And throughout this process, the other thing that was happening was we were juggling the many, many factors of the fact that I'm 39 weeks pregnant with breech twins and navigating. Okay, should we nudge labor along a little bit this week because biophysical profiles look good, baby's in a good position, or should we back off and let your body take over naturally and let spontaneous labor happen? And so it was this like ebb and flow of everything looks good. Maybe we should nudge things along versus not. So there were days where I did the breast pump, I did squatting, I did stairs, I did on my due date. So at the 40 week mark I actually ended up going to do my scan with that OB that I had congruent care with at the hospital and he confirmed again that baby was breech. They passed with flying colors and he asked me at that appointment do you want?

Speaker 3: 54:49

me to give you a C-section today? And I was like but he said it just, so that's all I can offer you. Do you want me to help you today? And I was like nope, no thanks. And he's like okay, just checking, he was super sweet, that's all I can offer you. Do you want me to help you today? And I was like nope, no thanks. And he's like, okay, just checking, he was super sweet.

Speaker 2: 55:10

And so I left that appointment. Again, the babies were looking great and my midwife came over that night to do an herb protocol to essentially the midwives version of an induction at home, because, again, we had just gotten a great biophysical profile. Baby was in a good position and it was weighing the risks of next week we might not get this news, tomorrow we might not have this news versus weighing the risks of basically an induction or pushing your body into labor when it's not quite ready. So we were weighing those options constantly and she came over and did a whole herb protocol. We did a lot of spinning babies, a lot of squatting and ultimately I would keep a contraction pattern when we were doing all the things. But the second we stopped doing them, like my contractions would stop and they were never getting regular or rhythmic or stronger, like they were just kind of there. So they left. The next morning and the next week was very similar, like one day of doing nothing, one day of maybe nudging, one day of, okay, maybe you should go for a walk today. The next day, okay, maybe you should sleep today. And so now we're past 41 weeks, I'm still pregnant with twins, but my midwives were around all the time they were over probably every day, every other day, checking heart tones Again. My babies were passing these biophysical profiles with flying colors. My blood pressure was staying within good range. We were all healthy. So we just kept making the decision to stay pregnant because we were all healthy.

Speaker 2: 56:48

I think I had done a few membrane sweeps at that point to try to get things moving. I think I took castor oil in some way shape or form three or four times in, like orange juice in scrambled eggs, in protein shakes. I had done a lot of different things to try to kick things off and they just wore not. They were not so, probably because it was a baby butt on my cervix and not a baby head. So get down to the last week and Sunday. So this is. It was exactly 41 weeks. I had done a membrane sweep and she had checked me and I think they were like stretching me a little bit every time they were doing a sweep. So at this point I was a five and I haven't actually been a five for like a week. So there was cervical change happening. So I was hopeful and I was also hopeful that once things got started that they would really go fast. And so Sunday I was a five that was, at 41 weeks and then 41 and four.

Speaker 2: 57:49

So Thursday my midwife came over maybe once throughout that week and did another little herb protocol on me just us two and didn't work again. Thursday I took a bath because she's like just relax today and I got out of the bath I laid in bed and my water broke and I knew what happened. But I got up and I went to the bathroom. There was definitely meconium stain in the water, but especially with the Breach Baby, I was like okay, well, his butt is right there. But I immediately started crying.

Speaker 2: 58:25

So it was the fear, the anxiety, the holy shit. This is happening. It all rushed at once and even being in the role that I am, knowing what I know, as the birthing parent, as the mom doing it, all of that shit goes out the window and you're just like I don't know what's just happening, like I called my mom, I called my midwife, I'm like I don't know, like I'm freaking out. And so that day I ended up putting on a depend and my baby was pooping out of me throughout the entire day. So this happened around 2pm on Thursday they came over. She's like okay, let's walk around the block every 10 feet, do a squat, you know, because now we're at the point where we do need contractions to happen, because now my water's broken, so like we do need a contraction pattern to be going, and it wasn't. So we're doing the things. Finally, I kind of got a contraction pattern that felt like it was going to stick and again, at this point I'm five centimeters. So she calls the other midwife team. She's like I think you guys should come here because this is probably going to happen fast now that it's happening.

Speaker 2: 59:34

They started filling up the pool for me, all of those things, and then, yet again, things just started to stop. They just petered out and it was so frustrating that whole last couple of weeks. Just waking up pregnant every morning was just like oh my God, are you kidding me? Like this didn't happen overnight, especially that day, especially now knowing that the other midwives were there and so and they left me alone. Like they said hello and then they totally left me alone, and then I just remember feeling like a watched pot, even though nobody was making me feel that way.

Speaker 2: 1:00:11

And then there's flashbacks to my last birth, flashbacks to why is this not happening? Why am I almost 42 weeks and my body is like not kicking into gear, like what's going on? How am I walking around at five centimeters and just not having contractions? I don't understand this. And so eventually they petered out and my midwife said do you want me to tell everyone to leave? And I was like actually yes. And then she asked me the very hard question of do you want me to tell everyone to leave? Meaning, like, my mom and my doula who was my aunt from the previous birth that I told you about that came down from Des Moines and this woman was driving down every single week because she lived in Iowa and had her own business. She was driving down every single week and at that moment I just needed to be by myself and I knew it was going to break my mom's heart for me to tell her to leave, but I was like yes, like please, they need to leave. And so I think my husband had to go down and do the dirty work and we tell him to leave.

Speaker 2: 1:01:13

And so we went to bed. My midwife was the only one that stayed. She stayed overnight on my couch. She was checking heart tones every, however often while I slept I was sleeping with the peanut ball, and, at some point during the night, contractions started again on their own, and this was the first time in both of my pregnancies that contractions had started on their own, without the breast pump, without squatting, without anything else. And I was just so ecstatic and my husband was asleep, my midwife was asleep, it was just me, and, like we were, I was just walk. I say we because me and the baby's, like we were just walking around the room.

Speaker 2: 1:01:52

I was on all fours, I was leaning over the bed, I was on the dresser, like leaning against it, and just that hour and a half was one of my like favorite moments, and I remember I like put my hands on my belly and I just had this really sweet conversation with my babies of we've got this, we're going to do this, I'm listening to you, we're doing this together. And then, after that hour and a half or so, they stopped again, and this time, though, it felt different to me. It felt like, okay, they're, just because it started on its own. I was like they're just giving me this last little break before I meet them, like before shit hits the fan. And so I laid back down, and when I woke up, there was no contraction and I was like, oh my God, this isn't happening. So I got in the shower and again, this is all me by myself and I think I needed that alone time so bad.

Speaker 2: 1:02:49

I got in the shower and I had another conversation with my babies mainly baby A, because a lot of this was up to him and I was like, okay, I told you last night that I was listening. I said we're in this together. I said we're doing this. I still mean that there is something you know that I don't know. There is something happening inside there that you know that I just I can't know and I'm listening to you and like this is going to make me cry. But I told him I'm listening and so when I got out of the shower, my midwife came upstairs and she asked me if she could check me and I was like, yeah, that was the first check I had had since my water had been broken and, mind you, actually was the first check I had had since Sunday, the past Sunday.

Speaker 2: 1:03:37

So again, just a refreshed Sunday. I was a five. And she also said on Sunday I can feel his butt Like. I feel his butt engaged. When she checked me that morning it was Friday morning. She's like I'm going to have to stop this exam because I think I'm going to traumatize you if I keep going, because my cervix had shifted high and back since Sunday. She's like you feel like about a four and I don't feel his butt anymore. I don't know what I'm feeling. I don't want to keep examining you to figure it out, but it's a hip or it's a back, it's not a butt.

Speaker 2: 1:04:11

And I think at that moment we both knew we got to call it and she said you know, I really think now's the time to transfer and because I have had that conversation with him in the shower, I felt at peace with that. Maybe not quite yet, like I think I had to cry and I'm sure I had to process things a little bit with my husband, but in that moment I was like, okay, we're doing this. I'm not willing to force a contraction pattern on a malpositioned breech baby at home and risk cord prolapse, which is already a risk. But we had planned for that risk with a butt plugging my cervix, but not with not a butt plugging my cervix. And so we slowly packed the bag. Because I did not have a bag packed, my midwife called the OB that we had already established care with. She was going to perform the surgery. She let them know we were coming. Unfortunately, she couldn't come with me because it was still COVID protocols, because this was February of 2021.

Speaker 2: 1:05:08

And I got to have a really cute, heartfelt moment with my oldest. I had my mom bring him back over because he went to my mom's house. She brought him over and I told him I was going and everything, and so that was, it was non-emergent. It was very this is okay and I'm very consciously making this choice. And it felt very autonomous and I speak to a lot of my clients, not necessarily telling them specifically my story if they don't ask me, but this has brought me so much perspective with clients of like your plan can change and you can still make the next best choice very autonomously and you are given that space to make it and it truly felt like my choice. It didn't feel like, oh well, I have to have a C-section because this is the only thing that's left. It was like, no, I could stay at home, I could do all of these other things, but at that moment I was like I don't feel comfortable with that risk anymore. This is the choice that feels best for us. So I walked into the hospital.

Speaker 2: 1:06:06

There was some funny stuff that happened at the hospital that like pissed me off. The lady at the front was like, oh girl, I just get the epidural. She prayed for me in the elevator and then when we get up to the room, they're like can we do an ultrasound to confirm position? And I was like I know what position they're in. Oh, because they said we want to confirm that you're a candidate for a vaginal birth or not. I'm like no, no, no, like I'm not here for that. If there is a vaginal birth happening, I'm leaving.

Speaker 2: 1:06:34

And then one resident wanted to give me a vaginal exam to make sure that I had enough time to get prepped and ready for the OR. And I said absolutely not. There's no contractions happening. Trust me, there's not a baby coming out of me. I'll tell you if you don't have time. And again, if that's the case, I'm not going back to the OR. So like it was just funny. Like some of the protocols that they have, it's so second nature that they don't sometimes think to like put it into the context of what's happening with this particular woman. So I declined the vaginal exam.

Speaker 2: 1:07:10

I did have a nurse walk over to put something in my drip and did it without consent and I was like what are you putting in my drip? She said penicillin. I said for what she said. Well, because your water's been broken for almost 24 hours. At that point I think it had been 24 hours and I was like well, I'm declining, that, I don't have the fever, I don't have the shake, like I don't have an infection. My midwife's been tracking all of that stuff. I had been having my temperature taken, all of those things. So I was like no, thank you. Also, I wanted to keep my placentas, which was a whole nother thing. That Obi was like well, I don't know, and I'm like, okay, we'll just do it anyways. And so they were really sweet about that. He actually even offered to give me my antibiotic the surgical antibiotics after the cords had been cut, so that my babies didn't get antibiotics because I didn't want them to have that. So that was really sweet of him to offer.

Speaker 2: 1:08:05

But one thing that I do have a lot of trauma around, though, with this was I spoke to a pediatric nurse team that was going to be in the OR that I very specifically said my babies will come directly to me. I had asked for a clear drape. My babies were supposed to come directly to me and for some reason the nurses that were in that room with me prepping were not the same nurses that were in the OR and they took them to the warmer and I was like livid, livid. I was like they were not supposed to go to the warmer, they were supposed to come directly to me. And I remember like cussing them out in the OR, basically saying like where the fuck are my babies? And like screaming across the OR. I think they were only over there for like 30 seconds to a minute and I like made my husband go over there and get them because I knew they were fine. Like they lifted them up, I got to see them through the clear drape but then they walked that way instead of coming straight to my chest and I was like so confused. Everybody apologized to me. After the anesthesiologist even apologized, the resident came in and was like we're so sorry that happened. We don't know why that happened.

Speaker 2: 1:09:10

The nurses after the fact the postpartum nurses were amazing. They helped me latch because my mom couldn't be there right away because of COVID protocols. They helped me get tandem nursing set up. Babies were fine, babies were great. They were seven pounds five ounces and seven pounds nine ounces and I'm pretty sure the seven pounds five ounces which was my baby A was only because he had been pooping for an entire day. I think he would have weighed more because at all the growth scans he was measuring bigger. So, yeah, that was my second experience and home birth, midwifery care, postpartum 10 out of 10 recommend. They are also your pediatrician for the first six to 12 weeks, depending on your midway. So I did not have to ever go out to the doctor's office. I didn't have to do any of that, which was so nice.

Speaker 1: 1:09:56

So yeah, I love like you answered literally every single question that I had as a labor and delivery nurse going but what if? But what if, but what if? And I think that this just really highlights how hospital and medicalized birth and again, I'm a labor and delivery nurse but I'm hoping to be a part of the change it comes down to. I wrote it down because what I heard was that you got more one to one attention than you would have ever gotten in the hospital. So when we're looking at safety that one to one care and having all of your safety checks done you had your BPPs, your babies were passing the BPPs. Your midwife was monitoring them at your home. Was it Dopplers or was it? Did she have some sort of machine that I've never heard of?

Speaker 2: 1:10:42

No, we were using Doppler.

Speaker 1: 1:10:43

Still, they're skilled in that, so I in the hospital. It's rare that you would do Dopplers with true intermittent monitoring. I think there might be another word of but when you just basically listened to, yeah because we also do a different form where it's like 20 minutes on and then 40 minutes off, just because it's easier when you have two patients. So to have to go in and listen through a contraction and then listen to the other babies were a contraction. We just don't have the staffing for that. No, you guys are.

Speaker 2: 1:11:12

So what I'm?

Speaker 1: 1:11:13

hearing is yeah, it's all about saving money, right, and it's all about liability. So they're balancing liability versus saving money, not necessarily safety and what's best for the patient. So I just wish that there was a way that we could work with different levels, that they all worked together and that we could create what you have created in your birth experiences, where you have the midwife, you have the doula, you have the birth center and you have the hospital, and there's just different levels. Once we've gotten to a point where maybe it's not safe here, then maybe it's safe here, and then maybe here. But instead of having all these protocols for liability like the, I just want to check you to make sure that you're not going to deliver imminently. We can do all the preps before the oh or what. No, no, no.

Speaker 1: 1:12:00

There's a lot of mindless things that go on based on protocol, based on trying to fit people into a box at the hospital so that they can have their policies. That, I'm hearing, don't happen with the midwifery care at home and in the birth center. You have your protocols, but you're going to check for safety before you make that decision, and I wish that that. That is the epitome of informed decision making and autonomy and we don't have that in the hospital. I mean we do, but it's not to that level because we're looking at the whole floor and trying to make sure that everybody's safe. So your care might have to wait because this person is having an emergency and this doctor needs to be there. So you may get the hospitalist, the person that wasn't scheduled to be. Your doctor will come in and help and we do have those things. They're there for reason, for safety and all that stuff, and I agree with that. But it just sounds like the perception that I hear at the hospital of home birth and birth center. Birth needs to be adjusted.

Speaker 1: 1:13:03

I don't think you can speak for every birth center or every midwife, because you know, just like I can't speak for every OB, there's people that are better and people that are not necessarily the best, you know, and maybe don't have the best intentions or are more in it for not necessarily the one to one care, but you know, to just get people through to make the money.

Speaker 1: 1:13:23

But I think that it's a spectrum and so I don't think anybody goes into it thinking that, but that's what tends to happen.

Speaker 1: 1:13:30

But I just love how that you were able to take the information that you had in the moment and make an informed decision in the moment, and when it got to the point where you weren't comfortable with the risk anymore, that's when you were able to choose to have the C-section and I hear a lot of people in.

Speaker 1: 1:13:47

I mean, we get real nervous in the hospital once people go past 39 weeks because of our own trauma, and you talked earlier about making decisions out of fear, and I think that we probably do that a lot, and so I feel like it's time that, as a community, we take a step back and really just question what our intentions are and where we're making these decisions from, and try to use cases like yours to understand what true evidence-based practices and unfortunately, evidence-based practices is what we know now so let's start to learn what else we can learn from people that are really trying to have more autonomy in how they're treated and how they're birthing, because birth is so medicalized in hospitals and it doesn't necessarily have to be yeah. Yeah, unless there's risks, unless the risks are there.

Speaker 2: 1:14:37

Yes, there's a place for all of it. It's all necessary. It's just sometimes the pendulum swings too far in one direction, and this happens on both sides of the spectrum. And.

Speaker 2: 1:14:51

I am always a huge proponent of saying there is no right or wrong answer. It's what is right for you, what feels good to you. It goes down to that individualized care, that. What are your actual risk factors? Yeah, sure, your higher risk as a twin mom, for instance. I'm just using that as an example because you have a higher chance of maybe getting gestational diabetes or getting hypertension or getting preeclampsia, but it doesn't actually mean that you have those things. It just means you have a higher risk of getting them. So the term high risk is so relative. Risk is relative. Safe is relative.

Speaker 2: 1:15:29

None of those things are actually definable in birth and no matter where you give birth or how you give birth, there's risk. There's risk to getting in your car and driving every day. We cannot take risk out of life. We cannot take the unknown out of life. So it's like how can we pull the information in? And I always say to information comes from two places. It comes from the outside, the research, the evidence, and then it comes from your intuition. And you have to be able to run the book information, the research information through your own personal filter and then connect with providers that are in alignment with that. Because me having a birth with a midwife who was like, well, I've never been trained in twins, I've never been trained in breach, I'm not comfortable with this. And me just being like, well, I'm comfortable with it, so get comfortable with it is also not safe. You have to be with providers that are also at the same comfort level and the comfort level of your desires, and if they're not, that doesn't make them bad. That just means you're not a right fit and that's okay. When clients tell me, well, my doctor won't allow me to have a breach vaginal birth, or my doctor won't allow me to go past 38 weeks with twins, and I'm like, well, first of all, they can't allow you to do anything. You get to choose to change doctors if that's not in alignment with what you want and, mind you, like I totally understand there's nuances to this Like changing doctors is always the easiest thing and insurance is a play and location is at play. But if we reframe our brains to everything as an option, I have the choice. I get to choose to birth with this doctor who wants me to deliver twins at 38 weeks because that is their comfort level, and I am choosing to do that because my doctor is most comfortable with that. That is still a choice and that is so much more empowering than well, my doctor didn't let me and it's just it's like we've got to take back that reframe. And again, I know I'm saying this on a very high level and this is so nuanced in each individual's situation.

Speaker 2: 1:17:37

But going back to what you're saying about all of the protocols and stuff, so much of this is like so systemic that you are part of the change. The nurses I tell clients all the time I'm like your nurse is going to make or break your experience Like good labor and delivery nurses are so vital and ones that bring that autonomy into the hospital, like we need more of those. And we need doulas that are able and willing to work with hospital staff and willing to step into that role, because that's where women honestly probably need the most support. And we have to be able to somehow work within this broken system, because there's so many things on a systemic level that are broken about it, or maybe even not broken, as some would say, but just working the way there's supposed to be, but just not in the favor of centering women, and we have to be able to do that and it's slowly going. It's going to make that change. But, like you said, when you have fear of litigation and that's coming from two places, you know doctors are scared to get sued because women also don't trust themselves and they put all of their trust in their doctors. So anything that goes wrong they instantly blame the doctor. And now I'm totally not saying that there aren't cases where the doctor is to blame, but it happens less in care, like for instance with my midwife.

Speaker 2: 1:19:05

If something would have happened to my baby because I chose to push contraction pattern on a malposition to breach baby and I had a cord prolapse and he got lots of oxygen and say he didn't make it, which was a totally bang that was running through my brain, that would not have been her fault because I took full ownership of that decision. I was not willing to take that risk. But had I been willing to take that risk and he would have been born just fine, I would have been able to say I fucking did that. And had he not been just a child, I would have also had to say I have to live with that. It's not my midwife's fault. I don't get to go sue her because something happened to my baby because of a choice I made.

Speaker 2: 1:19:42

But in the hospital we give away so much of our power that that's also why we become so sue happy. In a sense we're literally saying okay, I'm going to do everything you say, as long as you give me a healthy baby. So when we don't do what the doctors say, the doctors are like well then, I can't promise you a healthy baby. Like it's this tug of war and if the more we can trust ourselves as women and trust birth and trust the process, the more and more doctors don't have to fear litigation as much, if that makes sense but it's not going to have to be a day like it's not going to have.

Speaker 1: 1:20:18

Nope, it's not. We got to be part of the solution and slowly, maybe by the time our kids are having kids, I know system will be a little bit better.

Speaker 2: 1:20:25

No, we're not going to change them in a day, but what you can do is you can understand your fears, you can understand your preconceived notions, you can decide how you want this experience to feel and look like. You can arm yourself with information and ask really, really good questions and align yourself with providers that have the same values and desires as you, and get support along the way. So there is a lot that is still in your control. There is so much that you can do, and that's why I do what I do. That's why I have the program I have and appreciate the work that you do too, because, you know, just having these conversations is another big piece.

Speaker 1: 1:21:02

Absolutely. I think that it's super important, and I learned so much, too, that I can take to my practice, and I'm hoping that other nurses listen and providers can learn more too. Well, taylor, it has been so informative and enlightening to talk to you today, and I hope that this is one of many future conversations, especially after. What are you having? Are you finally having some girls?

Speaker 2: 1:21:24

I'm having a boy and a girl One girl, okay, so you're getting your girl. I'm having a girl with five boys. I just expected it, but there is a girl there.

Speaker 1: 1:21:35

So that female energy was somewhere.

Speaker 2: 1:21:37

I look back on that and I'm like that female energy had to have been just me, like I think it was me, maybe Like me stepping into my female energy, I think is what really?

Speaker 1: 1:21:47

was being called in. Wow, that is profound. I love that. Well, taylor, thank you so much. Thank you.