Kiona Nessenbaum: Embracing the Duality of Birth Work and Motherhood with Heart and Wisdom

When Kiona Nessenbaum, a dedicated doula and birth worker, shares her story, you can't help but feel the room change. As she recounts her own unexpected journey into motherhood at a young age and her evolution into a professional guiding others through the birthing process, it's a reminder of the resilience and transformative power of women. From humorous labor moments to the nitty-gritty of breastfeeding challenges, Kiona invites us into her world, offering unfiltered insights that highlight the emotional and practical aspects of childbirth.

Navigating the delicate balance between professional aspirations and parenting is no small feat, and Kiona's candid discussions on the subject shed light on a reality many mothers face. She articulates the complexities of birth decisions, the emotional landscape of motherhood, and the critical importance of creating culturally sensitive birthing environments. Her personal narratives underscore the varied experiences of childbirth and the necessity for healthcare providers to foster empathetic spaces, especially for people of color. Kiona's warmth and wisdom resonate, offering connection and inspiration whether you're a new parent, a birth worker, or someone with a curiosity about the world of childbirth.

Join us for an episode that explores the intersection of personal experience and professional dedication. Kiona not only shares her profound birth stories but also extends an open invitation to continue the conversation about birthing in our community. If you've ever wondered about the power of support during labor or the impact of informed care, this episode promises to enrich your understanding and perhaps even guide your own birthing choices. With Kiona's encouragement, we're reminded of the importance of sharing these stories, fostering inclusivity, and the beauty of finding kindred spirits in life's most transformative journeys.

Connect with Kiona:
kionanessenbaum.com

https://www.instagram.com/birthasweknowitpodcast

Want me as your birth coach? You got it!

I will help you:

☑️identify the source of anxiety you have surrounding birth. 

☑️fill in knowledge gaps to make sure that you are fully informed and confident. 

☑️learn key phrases so you can better communicate with your medical team. 

☑️emotionally process your fears so that they don’t hold power over you

Go to kellyhof.com to book a free 30 minute birth vision call.

Coaching offer

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:28

Hello, today I have with me Kiona Nessenbaum. Kiona is a doula, a birth assistant, and has experience as a student midwife. She's also the mother of three and the host of the Birth as we Know it podcast. Today she is here to share her birth stories and how she manages to balance motherhood and all of her other endeavors. Kiona, thank you so much for joining me.

Speaker 2: 0:54

Yeah, no problem, I'm super excited and, to be honest, a little nervous.

Speaker 1: 0:58

I am super used to hosting, but I am not used to being the one interviewed, so yeah, well, no one knows your birth stories better than you, so I'm sure that once you get into it you're not even going to remember I'm here. Yeah, that's probably true. So I'm curious, because you mentioned that you did not start off as a birth worker when you went into your first birth, and I want to know how that was for you and then what.

Speaker 2: 1:23

So let's get ready to not hear Kelly for a while, because I have a lot to say.

Speaker 2: 1:29

So I'll just go ahead and start off with finding out that I'm pregnant, right? So I am 19 years old and I find out that I am pregnant with my first child and at the time my boyfriend, who is now my husband. But my boyfriend was 18 years old and a senior in high school. So I was in my first year of college and we were shocked that we were pregnant, but at the same time, I like to think of it being as we weren't intentionally trying, but we also weren't intentionally preventing, Because I was on birth control. But I ended up stopping being on birth control because when I went into college, I actually went to a Christian private university called Seattle Pacific University and so I stopped taking birth control because at that time I was, like I am a strong believer of God, like abstinence is the way to go.

Speaker 2: 2:20

Man, was I so stupid? Because I was already. I already had had sex before, right, and so once you feel the feels, you can't not want them anymore. And so, of course, me and my boyfriend at the time, who is my husband I'm just going to call him from my husband from here and out but me and my husband at the time were still doing the dirty and I was like Just praying to God afterwards, right.

Speaker 2: 2:46

Please forgive us.

Speaker 2: 2:47

Yeah, we have sinned, you know. And then I ended up being pregnant and it was a surprise, but, like I said, we weren't preventing it. So once I got pregnant, I really, really, really intentionally wanted to have an unmedicated birth. And at this time, with being so young, the insurance I was on was state insurance and so I was like all right, what does my insurance offer me? Where can I go to birth? And my first thought was OK, let me go to a hospital, because that's all I knew. That's all I knew at the time, and little did I know.

Speaker 2: 3:21

Throughout my pregnancy I was heavily looking for midwifery care through an OB because I thought that my insurance only covered OBs right, and so I went through my whole pregnancy. I even fired my OB once and got a new one and tried to do all that I could to make sure that I was getting high quality care and it was met. But it wasn't that midwifery care I was looking for. But my provider that I chose was awesome Can't say I remember their name now, but it felt right.

Speaker 2: 3:53

And that OB did not end up being the OB that was present at my birth, which is really common in hospital births. I actually ended up getting the laborist that was on the floor. I must have been birthing on a super busy day, but let me go into when I started labor with her. So when I went into labor I was at my mother-in-law's house because I had lived with her at the time and I had woken up. My husband and said, hey, I think things are rolling. And I did all the things of like taking a shower, and the funny part is I realized I was in labor when my bowels decided to just empty everything.

Speaker 1: 4:29

Yes, it is such a real thing.

Speaker 2: 4:32

Yeah, people don't talk about it, I don't know. Your body kind of just ejects everything, and so I was like, ok, my contractions are getting closer and so I wake up my husband around 2 am. We end up stopping a block away to pick up his best friend at the time, because he lived a block away and my husband is an only child, so he wanted his best friend because it's like the closest thing he has to a sibling to be by his side to support him on his journey to parenthood.

Speaker 1: 4:55

And I was all for it, OK, cool.

Speaker 2: 4:57

I was like, OK, that's cool, whatever. But I can't say I can say that now. But when we stopped when I was in labor, I was like you got to be kidding me, we just need to go, you know. So we get to the hospital. I really really thought that I was going to love the tub, but when I got checked in I did not love the tub because the hospital didn't let me or the nurse at the time did not let me make the water as hot as I wanted to make it, and you know there's policies in the hospital you can't have your water too high because you're burning yourself or boiling the baby, I don't know what it is. But at the time I was just so angry because I wanted it so bad and it didn't work. And then I got out and I was so cold and I feel like it just really impacted my labor because I was so cold.

Speaker 2: 5:40

Labor continued to progress and my husband is completely terrified of blood. So that's something that is hard to be afraid of when you have a laboring partner, because blood is part of it, right. And so there was one point in my labor when I was like, babe, I really need you to push on my back, Like, oh, I was having like a lot of back pain, not like osteoporosis, you're wrong.

Speaker 1: 6:04

Sonny side up. There you go, face up.

Speaker 2: 6:07

Yeah, not a face up baby, but my back was feeling it right and little did. I know I was closer to actually giving birth, but he was giving me counter pressure and I was like, oh, I think my water broke because I felt some fluid come out. And he looked and it was not water, it was blood, it was a lot of bloody show just coming out and saying your cervix has changed, you know. So he freaked out and he decided that that was the time to go grab my sister. So my sister came in and I'm a party birther so I love everybody around. So when COVID happened I was terrified because I was like no people need their families, but yeah. So he decided to take that as an opportunity to step back into the corner, take his glasses off and not see anything anymore, but still be there, you know.

Speaker 1: 6:53

And I was like that's cool.

Speaker 2: 6:55

Know your boundaries, that's right, that's OK. So my sister was there and fast forward a little bit. My mother, my stepmother, my bonus mom, she was there with me and the thing I love the most about her being present was that she was a quiet voice. And she was the quiet voice that was in the space. You know, there's all of these beeping machines, there's all of the questions that are asked by the providers that are trying to make you comfortable and know what's going on, and she was the only quiet voice. And at that time I was like a little bit more religious, and I'm personally not religious now. Anyway, that's the whole thing.

Speaker 1: 7:29

But I've been there, yeah.

Speaker 2: 7:32

And so she was like praying, really quietly, saying like God, please guide my daughter through this labor. She really needs this to be calm and smooth and stuff like that. And I needed that so much at that time and I didn't realize it, but I needed it so bad. And then a little bit later on I got checked and I was about nine and a half centimeters. I had an anterior lip, and so the nurse told me to get them all fours and she was like, just do this for five contractions. And I was like, five contractions, jesus Christ, like these are insane. You know, it was so, so hard.

Speaker 2: 8:05

And I got through those five contractions and oh, I should say, right before when she checked me, they broke my water because they said that it would speed things along and I was like, okay, so rude. Yeah, I was like, okay, like nine centimeters, okay. And so after those five contractions, I was complete and they said that I could push. And then my baby came and it was great and she was so cute and squishy. And then the nurse at the time looked at our daughter and then looked directly at my husband, was like she looks so much like you and then he started crying. I know I was like, oh God, I did all this work and she looks just like her dad. Thank you.

Speaker 1: 8:44

And there's a reason for that, like evolutionary reason for that At least I tell myself that. So, if there was, like no DNA test, that the male parental partner might look at the baby and say, oh yeah, I'll stick around, that's mine.

Speaker 2: 8:56

Yeah, and not like kill or eat the baby or something, right?

Speaker 1: 9:01

If it looks like Joe down the street, he's probably not going to stick around, right? So it's probably a good thing.

Speaker 2: 9:05

Yeah, which is true. I guess the nurse was feeling really primal at that time when she said that, but that was super awesome.

Speaker 2: 9:12

And then I didn't figure out. Going into my postpartum, my breastfeeding was super simple. I did have it was my first time and I did have a really scary moment. About two weeks postpartum I was nursing my baby and she was coughing up little blood clots, and so that was really scary for me. And then one day she was wearing this like pristine white onesie Right, and then she spits up and it's literally all bright red blood. And I am terrified as a new mom. I am like what the hell is going on? Is my baby dying? Is she bleeding internally? Everything else about her seemed totally fine. She wasn't crying, she wasn't doing anything. That was unusual. So of course I call my hospital, tell them what's going on.

Speaker 2: 9:58

And the nurse that was on the hotline was like check out your nipples, what do your nipples look like? And I look at my nipples, like, yes, breastfeeding is painful, but it's not unbearable for me. There were some moments where I'm like, ooh, this latch is really intense. I look at my nipples and I'm like I don't know. They're just like swollen and cracked a little bit. And she's like okay, what I want you to do is I want you to go grab your breast pump. Do you have a breast pump? I said yes, and she's like, if it comes out with a pink hue, it means that your baby is consuming a lot of blood from your nipples. And I was like, okay, and oh my gosh, it was like the pinkest of all pink. It was like strawberry milk and I was like, oh my God, she was spitting up the milk that her body can't digest and it was completely terrifying. But I was glad to know that it was like because of me and not because my baby was dying. So that was a huge thing for me. And that was just the beginning of my breastfeeding journey and so, of course, I continue to pay more attention to my nipples throughout my journey. But it got better and smoother and I would say the biggest I'm going to be honest here one of the biggest struggles I had is I have really big nipples and my baby has a really small mouth, and so I'm like, how are we doing this? So I'm that parent. That's like jamming my baby onto the breast as soon as their mouth is open.

Speaker 2: 11:22

And yeah, the rest of the breastfeeding journey was fine, but as a postpartum mom who was reflecting on her labor and pregnancy, I had realized that my mother, my bonus mom, being so quiet in the space, I really wanted to be that person for someone else. So that's when I started looking into birth work and I was like, looking into, okay, I want to be a midwife, what does it take to be a midwife? And then, when I was looking into being a midwife, some article that I found was like well, if you are interested in being a midwife, you should try being a doula first, because of the on call life and like all this stuff. And I was like, what's a doula? What the heck is a doula? And so I look it up and I'm like, oh cool, let me start there. You know, I don't need any medical training. It's something that seems tangible to me right now, because the training that you get or at least the training that I got at the time was just a weekend smash course kind of training. And so I was like, cool, I'll do that.

Speaker 2: 12:21

And so I took the training, and my daughter was one by the time. I took the training and it was awesome. I had a lot of fun, I learned a lot. I felt like I was the birth guru after taking this weekend. Course, you know, I was like I know exactly what to do. But I feel like the reason why I felt that way was because I have always had this instinct of helping others, like when I was in college when I first found out I was pregnant with my daughter. I actually wanted to take pre-rex for nursing because I wanted to be an OB nurse. Like I wanted to be on the labor and delivery ward. And that changed things because I couldn't do that. I was too sick and everything. In my first trimester I was like I ain't doing this. So I leaned into taking the easier classes because I still just wanted to make go towards the degree rather than pausing and stopping and not being in school. So my daughter was one when I took the doula training. But I didn't take my first client until about two years later.

Speaker 2: 13:19

And yeah, I was trained as a doula. I was super immersed in birth. I was doing like all of these doula meet and greets and like talking with other doulas, like what is it like? Like how are you running your business and all of this stuff. And, of course, I was like begging my older sisters to have kids and they didn't back then, like hurry up and have a kid so I can help you.

Speaker 2: 13:39

And so I was in a class and I had found out that one of my classmates was pregnant. She was a friend of mine and I was like, oh my God, this might be weird, but can I be your doula? You know, like can I please be your doula? And she was like, oh, what's a doula? And then so we get into the whole doula thing and the birth conversations and she talks about what her first birth was like, and then I support her with her second. It was like when I ended up, so I actually didn't even end up making it to her actual birth, because she birthed really fast. Her first birth she ended up birthing in the ambulance on the way to the hospital.

Speaker 2: 14:12

And her second birth was faster than that and she was her husband, was talking to me and texting me and was like, hey, she's having some contractions and things. And I was like, okay with being my first client, I'm like ask her these things, and like she's in labor, me not knowing like how far in labor she is. English wasn't her first language and so it was more of just like trying to navigate the whole. When should I come, you know, because I don't want to be like, okay, I'm coming now. And so she, he's on the phone with me and he's like she's pushing in the bathtub right now and I have a feeling I'm about to catch a baby. And I was like, okay, where do you want me to meet you? Like, do you want me to meet you at home? Do you want, are you gonna go to the hospital? Like, cause this is, they did not plan on having a home birth, right. And so he's like just meet us here at home. And I'm like, okay, cause I'm like 15 minutes away, right, I'm thinking he knows what he's talking about, he knows it's fun. So as I'm heading to their house, he calls me and he's like actually, the baby's here, I called 911, just meet us at the hospital. I was like, all right, so I did that.

Speaker 2: 15:19

And but it was so awesome because I could tell that, even though I was really new at being a doula, as she prepped for this birth, she knew more about what to expect because of the conversations that we were having. And when I saw her, she was like holding her baby and being rolled out of the ambulance and she was just smiling, she was just beaming, like she was just so happy because she was proud of her birth, like she wasn't scared cause we were talking about her previous birth, when she was scared cause she was alone. And then we talked about it and then her husband was with her this time and so, even though it didn't go as planned, she was happy and that felt good as being my first doula client. So after experiencing that I was like hooked. I was like who else has had babies? Let me get up in these doula programs and all that stuff. So I ended up signing on and being a contracted doula here in Seattle, washington, and it was super awesome.

Speaker 2: 16:14

The program was great and it made it easy as a parent of young kids to get clients, because what you would do is you would just put up your availability and clients would look at your profile and they would say, oh, she's available in my due date free gin, you know. And then we could talk, we can interview, say yes or no, hook up, and that'd be fine. And then the money went through the program rather than directly to me, so I didn't have to worry about necessarily having my own contract at the time and so it was a whole thing, and so that was my immersion into birth work, and fast forward to a couple of years later, I felt like being a birth doula wasn't enough, because I originally wanted to become a midwife. And so I'm over here trying to figure out OK, I just finished college, what can I do to get deeper into birth work, because one day I want to be a midwife? But what midwifery program can I actually realistically partake in?

Speaker 2: 17:10

Because midwifery programs are intense and I was still a young mom and I had I think it was a three-year-old and I was still balancing everything that was on my plate. And I very quickly found out, after having my daughter, that everything that I wanted to do as an individual outside of being a mother was put on the back burner, slash sidelines, and every single thing I wanted to do needed to be completed or accomplished around everybody else's schedule rather than my schedule being the primary schedule. So even when I was still in college and trying to finish up college, the classes I chose to take had to be based off of when I could have child care, and so I was happy that I figured out something, because all the classes I took were super random, but it led to a degree, and so I was happy about that. So me trying to find a midwifery program that would work. Of course I looked into Bastier University and they have a master's program, but I had a ready. I think I was in my last quarter of school when I looked into their prereqs and I would have had to be in school for another solid three years just to get the prereqs and I was like I can't do that, that's too much, it's not realistic. And so I was looking into other programs, talking to other community midwives, and they pointed me in the direction of an online school program called the Midwives College of Utah. So it's an online program and then you end up doing your testing and stuff in person in Utah, but everything like your practicums and your clinicals are in your local region most of the time.

Speaker 2: 18:38

Sometimes people have to move to go to a place that has more options, but I was lucky and fortunate enough to be in the Pacific Northwest, where it's like flourishing over here. There's a ton of birth centers and a ton of birth workers over here, and so, as I was looking for this program that I was trying to get into, I was working at Bastia University, which is why I looked at their program. I was working at Bastia University in the Simkin Center, which is where I took my doula training, because I was like I want to be in birth work but I don't know how. So I'm like where can I go when I can still contribute financially An admin job at a place that deals with birth in some way? So I did that, took all the trainings I could while working, because it was a discounted price or I got it for free if I was the helper of the course that weekend and then so, once I was doing more things with work and in birth work, I ended up looking for a birth assistant.

Speaker 2: 19:30

Training, which was the middle ground between a birth doula and a midwife, was birth assistant, because you do some clinical things but you don't do it all. You do the fetal heart tones or infant heart tones, depending on the training you do. You can actually administer vitamin K or pitocin and you get hands on, you could touch the baby and stuff. That was fun and so I did that training and then I think it was a couple of weeks before I actually went physically to the training I actually found out that I was pregnant with my son, and so my daughter is three at the time. I find out that I'm pregnant and I'm like oh snap, I feel like this is a now or never thing.

Speaker 2: 20:05

So right after I took this birth assistant training, I started talking to local birth centers about how I can get to births and what I need to do in order to accomplish getting certified as a birth assistant before my baby's born, because I want to get to birth and I also. After the training that I took, they told me well, you have to get 10 births, but the kicker is, all 10 of these births that you attend have to be free of charge because you're not certified. And so I'm over here like what the heck? What do you mean? I got a free like how long are these births as a birth doula? Like I know, births are super long, you know. And so for me to be like OK, I got to do 10 births for free. The only thing that made it really different was that birth assistants tended to get called near the end when they thought that birth was going to happen within the next couple of hours. So I'm there assisting the midwife. Sometimes that would come in and the birth would be precipitous, so I'd be called at the same time as the midwife, or I'd be called in after the midwife was with this client for 24, 27 hours. It really just depends. But it was awesome. I got all 10 births accomplished.

Speaker 2: 21:15

The last birth I went to, I was super pregnant, to the point to where, when I was going to these births and these people would be pushing out their babies, I would be having sympathetic contractions and having let down and all of this stuff, because I was super pregnant, about to have a baby myself. I think the last birth I went to I was 38 weeks, which was fun and challenging, but it was fun to have conversations, because after people had their babies, they're like oh my god, I didn't realize that you were pregnant. And then they would be like how far longer are you? Because they're in their zone. By the time they meet me, they don't even know who's in the room. And then afterwards I'm like can I take your baby's heart tones? And they're like, oh yeah, sure. Oh my god, you're half a belly. And just the conversations went from there.

Speaker 2: 21:55

So when I was pregnant, though, I also applied for midwifery school, and then I got in because I was like it's now or never I'm going to get into this birth thing or not. So I eventually had my son and I decided to have a home birth with him, because by the time I was pregnant with my son, I had learned so much more about birth whether that be birth centers, home births, all this stuff so I was looking into becoming a out of hospital midwife. So I was like, well, let me just have a home birth. I love birth, let me do that. I'm healthy, I'm active, I'm young still, I was 24. And so I was like, ok, let's do this. And the care that I received that pregnancy was so different than the care that I received with my first, because my in-hospital experiences with my providers they're shorter appointments and then my out of hospital experience with my provider.

Speaker 2: 22:42

This time around, the midwife would come to my house. We would just have conversations and appointments would be like an hour, sometimes two hours long because we would be talking so much. And that was amazing. And I had the intention, a very strong intention this time to know everybody that was coming into my birth space. And, in addition to that, I wanted every person that was in my birth space to be someone that looked like me. So I made sure that I found a midwife of color. I also made sure that that midwife had a student of color. If they had a student, I would only really want them in the space if they were of color, because I want to be able to look around the room when I'm in labor and feel a connection and I'm not saying that I can't feel a connection to people that aren't of color, it's just like in my vulnerability I want to be able to just feel that and I really wanted this kind of ancestral or spiritual vibe in my space the second time around.

Speaker 1: 25:20

I was literally about to say that I was calling on the presence of your ancestors.

Speaker 2: 25:24

Yes, exactly, I really wanted that. I wanted to look around and see that and feel that. And so everything went great. I was in complete denial that I was even in labor. I even got a call from a midwife and they were like, hey, do you want to come to this birth? And I was like, let me just talk to my husband, I'm a little uncomfortable today. And they're like, yeah, no problem. And then I talked to my husband. He's like, babe, you said you're uncomfortable, maybe you should just stay. You're super pregnant, you're past your due date right now. Because I was two days post-states, he was like you're too pregnant, just stay home. And I was like, fine, I'll stay, because I was so used to go, go going and just working and little did I know I was actually in labor.

Speaker 2: 26:00

Those discomforts were early labor pains, and so I'm in denial that I'm in labor and things start going. And I'm literally in denial so long that people are starting to hear that I'm having labor signs, like my husband's texting people. I let my midwife know like, hey, I'm just starting to feel stuff, just want to let you know. She let her student know. I called my doula. I did not have a doula the first time around, but I made sure that I had one the second time around and, yes, they were also of color. So I let all my people know and I would say I was probably maybe two hours into my labor when my dad called me.

Speaker 2: 26:36

Two or three hours into my labor when my dad called me, when I was starting to get the idea that yeah, ok, I'm probably in labor, he called me and he was like all right, yo, what's happening? Are you about to have this baby today? I'm about to go to Linwood. It's 45 minutes north and you are south, like what's happening? And it's traffic time. You know, it's like 4 PM or something like that. And I was like dad, it's fine, even if I am in labor, it's going to be a while, do what you need to do, just be on call to come back whenever we call you. And he's like, ok, cool.

Speaker 2: 27:05

And so literally 10 minutes after I get off the phone with my father, my water breaks and shit hits the fan. My labor completely changes. My husband is terrified because we're at home and he is just alone sitting with our three-year-old at the time staring at me like are you OK as I'm in the bathtub, and I'm like huh, you know, just like feeling all the things, and he's like, oh my god, because again, he's terrified of blood. There's no blood at this point. But also, being a birth worker, when my water broke, I was like crap, it's pea green, there's some aconium in here, and I was like I really don't want to go to the hospital. I don't want to get this far to have to go to the hospital. And so I text a photo of my panty liner to my midwife and she's like it seems like it's safe enough, let me get there, we'll figure it out and go from there.

Speaker 2: 27:59

So my labor picks up super quickly. I'm in a complete primal mode and I am just doing the labor dance, doing all the things Love that my doula showed up super quick because she was already nearby. My midwife made it barely Well, when I say barely, I mean like she made it and I had the baby, my son, less than an hour later. So it was like very things were moving. One thing that I also remember is me telling my doula because I went inside my bathroom tub where I could control the heat of the water and I was like wait until the noise changes in the faucet. That's when it's hot water. I don't know what it is Like when you change the position of it. I don't know if this is only my house, I don't know the sound of the water changes, maybe it's more irrigated or something, I have no idea. And then it gets hot and I was like, yeah, I just remember saying that to her.

Speaker 2: 28:49

And then it was super awesome because my three-year-old was super involved. She was giving me water, trying to hold my hand. At one point I was asking for a hand to squeeze and she puts her tiny little hand in mine and I'm like baby, I'm so sorry, I don't want to break your hand, I need a grown-up's hand. And she's like OK, mommy. And so she just sits there and rubs my shoulder and my hair that I have so little of, because I decided to shave my head bald during my pregnancy, because apparently I was going through some emotions.

Speaker 2: 29:22

And then I remember my mom coming and she was so upset because she had stayed at our house for a week before this day, because she's like I am going to be here for this baby, because she missed the first birth of my daughter. She's like I'm going to be here. And so she basically lived with us for two weeks and she's like I have to go to work today. If you have this baby, I'm going to be so mad at you. And, of course, the day she leaves and goes to work, I am in labor and she ends up finding a way to come back to the house and I remember her getting there because she touched me and I felt this immediate connection spiritually.

Speaker 2: 30:03

But one of the things that I felt right away was how cold her hands were, and I loved it. I needed it. I needed it so bad. And so she was touching me and her hands were cold and I was like, oh my god, yes, please, you know, but fast forward a little bit. Birth was great. Things were moving along. I ended up birthing my son in the bathtub and it was glorious and I was so proud of myself. It was intense, but it was not euphoric, but it was an intense pain that I knew was temporary, that was being productive. I did not feel like I was suffering. I was coping well through it all and it felt great.

Speaker 2: 30:39

Postpartum comes, everything is fine, and my doula brain is like you should eat something, and so I asked someone to get me a banana. I started eating this banana and right before I ate the banana, I birthed my placenta and there was a shit ton of blood pulled behind my placenta. And that's when I was like, oh, I should probably eat something because my body needs something. And then I go to eat this banana and then I pass out, because I like to think that everything that was keeping me stable changed direction and went to go digest this banana that I just ate and I passed out. And so it took two what are those called the little? I don't know if you guys actually have them. In the hospital, you might. In out of hospital settings there are these little like kind of pill shaped plastic paper. You wrapped things and they're full of ammonia. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, the ammonia. It took two of those to wake me up and one of them.

Speaker 1: 31:39

Usually people are like oh you know like in there, alive the stink, yeah, the stink's so bad.

Speaker 2: 31:44

It's like those like gym salts that people are sniffing nowadays. It like usually with one pot, like people come back to life, they become conscious again. It took two pops of those which was concerning, and then it wasn't long before I passed out again and then you know, I'm still bleeding, but it's not like I, I am not conscious. So, like the point from that I'm saying from here on is kind of like perspectives of what I've heard. You know, because I'm I'm so out of it. Some of the parts that I do remember is seeing blood and then seeing my bathwater be drained out because it was looking like too much blood and so they were trying to get an estimate of how much blood it was. So they drained it and so if it continued to fill up, they would be able to have a good estimate. That was my thought process. Well, thinking of it afterwards. But one thing that I would probably change about this whole birth situation is getting a hep lock. Because I opted out of a hep lock because I had an IV my first labor and I didn't really need it because everything was so quick and smooth and I felt like it was unnecessary. So this time around I was like I don't want anything of interventions about to be butt ass naked in my house, like I don't care, I just want to be. I want to do what my body does. It's going to be fine.

Speaker 2: 32:57

If I had opted into a hep lock, the next step would not have needed to happen. So because I opted out of having an IV hep lock, I ended up passing out again. Er, 911 was called, everything was called. All of these ambulance and fire people, firemen and women were coming to my house to help save me, right, and, of course, everybody's freaking out and I passed out twice before they came. They came. Thank God it was a woman that came in first, because I was completely naked and I felt good to just see a woman. I remember her blonde hair, fair skin, super strong looking. I was like you're dope. She like helps lift me out of the tub because I need to get out of the tub and she helps cover me up and then, as soon as I lean over her to get into the chair, I pass out again and so I'm just fainting because I'm losing so much blood.

Speaker 2: 33:49

To shorten this part of the story up, I ended up going into the ambulance and getting transferred to the hospital and when I'm in the ER, I'm only there for three hours, but I did not need any blood transfusion or anything like that, I just needed fluid. So, looking back, if I opted for a hep lock and got fluid throughout my labor, I likely would not have ended up needing to transfer and my provider, my midwife, could have gotten pittosin into me faster than through intramuscular, you know, like through an IM stick. So she did it a couple of times, from what I remember, but I think I lost about 800 cc's of blood at home. So I was really upset at myself because I wanted it to be perfect.

Speaker 2: 34:33

I wanted to prove everybody wrong that said home birth is dangerous and home birth isn't cool or not that it isn't cool. But, like you know, I was just like trying to prove myself yet again, because the first time I did have an unmitigated birth and I rubbed it in everybody's faces because I was like you thought that I couldn't. And then this time I was like I'm going to have a home birth and I wanted to rub it in everybody's faces but I couldn't. I couldn't do it, it's so unsatisfying.

Speaker 2: 34:58

Yeah, I mean, I felt so down and I was like, why me? Like? Why did this happen to me? My midwife and I were super, super connected and conversing a lot throughout my care about how I was anemic during my pregnancy the first time and some in my second, but by the time I had my blood draw last time, like my numbers were going up. But with that being said, it had been a couple of weeks since my numbers were drawn, like from when I went into labor. So numbers change pretty quickly. I feel like they go down faster than they go up. So I was anemic and the level that I was at with anemia was like on the bridge line when my numbers were drawn for safety of home birth. So I'm assuming that my numbers went down and I was no longer safe to have a home birth and I hemorrhaged and that led to the result of my postpartum, or my immediate postpartum.

Speaker 2: 35:47

Breastfeeding with him was totally fine, super good. He handled my big nipples, no problem, right. He did have a tongue tie without me realizing that he had a tongue tie and I didn't notice until I actually had my third, but that was a whole other thing. Yeah, I did experience some postpartum depression with him and I didn't experience it with my first. And I also kind of put it to the seasons a little bit, because my daughter was born in the summertime, so it was sunny, and then my son was born in November and so it was very dark. We did not have very long days.

Speaker 2: 36:23

I remember being snippy with my husband because he doesn't like when people can see in our house when it's dark outside, if our windows are open, obviously. But I snapped at him and I was like no, the sky is purple, it's not black, leave it open. I need as much sun as I can get Right. Not that whatever sun was coming in at that time was helping me by any means, but my nights were blending with my days because the daylight span of the actual 24 hour period was so low that I wanted my brain to click that it has been another day.

Speaker 2: 36:54

I didn't even realize that it was postpartum depression because I wasn't like officially diagnosed or anything. But I didn't realize it until I was one year postpartum and I was like that's why I was feeling that way. But I was super communicative with the people around me at that time. I wasn't like I'm depressed but I was like, yeah, I'm just not. I'm not feeling it Like, I love my son, I love my kids. But it seems a little bit harder this time and I just checked it up to having two instead of one.

Speaker 1: 37:21

Until I feel that, because post-perniate eluded and anxiety disorders just feel different, it's not like I'm sad because you have this wonderful thing in your life that you love so much, but you don't feel right either. I had a lot of intrusive thoughts and I had no idea that that was a thing. That was just normal.

Speaker 2: 37:39

I had intrusive thoughts too and I was like seeing shit. I was like up in the middle of the night by myself with a crying baby and it could also be the fact that I was exhausted but I was like did a person just walk past my window? And I'm like, no, that's impossible. I'm on the second floor of my house. What's happening? And so I was not 100% myself and who really is postpartum? Because there's so much that you're sacrificing as a parent but also just trying to get used to and gather and hold on to. It's such a transition, it's such a transitional period in your life and I use the word transition a lot when I talk about anything in my life, because I feel like I am in this constant transition. I'm never reaching the end and I'm always like, oh, this is really hard right now because I'm in transition. It could be because of a birth worker and that's like my word of choice.

Speaker 2: 38:28

So six months postpartum, I actually started midwifery school. I started my midwifery program and everything was handy dandy. I felt like everything was going great and I was still birth assisting. I started going back to births around the time that my son was about six months old and I kind of just picked up a new groove and started doing things again and he was born in 2017. So fast forward a little bit to 2019, 2020.

Speaker 2: 38:59

Between those two years, I was like heavy in the birth space. I was taking doula clients. I was also student midwife because I needed some kind of income, but as a student I wasn't making money, because you're a student, you're learning, and so I would be like cool, my thing is being in the birth space, so like I'm either going to be losing sleep because I'm at a birth with a doula client, or I'm going to be losing sleep because I'm at a birth as a birth assistant, or I'm going to be losing sleep because I'm at a birth as a student midwife. So I just needed it all to kind of line up as much as possible. It was hard to balance, but I was fortunate enough to have someone that I could partner with as a birth doula while doing these things, and so we would split call in my doula section of my life. Instead of being on call for doula clients all the time, it was more of, I got to split that with someone else and so I was able to still pick up clinical births and birth assistant births. So that was my way of having an income while being a student. Retrospectively, and while I was in it, I realized that it was very rough. But retrospectively I realized how much I actually missed in my life at that point and it was incredibly hard.

Speaker 2: 40:07

And then so when 2020 happened COVID happened at the end of 2020, I was still in school. I was about two and a half years into my four year program, so I was a little bit more than halfway through. I was barely starting to do the primary student things. So I was starting to sit with clients and do their entire prenatal visit. I was doing all the blood draws. I was doing vaginal exams, cervical exams. I was doing all the things. I even caught two babies, which was super fun and awesome. But then the Black Lives Matter movement happened and it was insane.

Speaker 2: 40:44

That whole time in my life was kind of a little bit of a blur because I was struggling mentally with how fucked up the world was. I was struggling so hard. And then I was studying some really intense classes that were based on how to deal with trauma or how to guide your clients through trauma, as well as just taking a really heavy academic course, because it's like one of the foundational courses of midwifery it's called prenatal two or something. You know just how to do your visits and how to be a midwife, basically, and so I was completely overwhelmed. And around the same time, public schools changed to online and I just couldn't do it all. I had no one to watch my kiddos when I was in clinic or at birth, and so sometimes I would take my kids with me to clinic and they would sit in the back room all day, and it was a lot to balance and I just couldn't do it. So I had to make the extremely, extremely, extremely hard decision to withdraw from midwifery school. I did not want to, because I felt so close to being at the end, and I have since spoken to people that were in my class that are like full on midwives and I'm like, damn, that could have been me. You know, that could have been me, but it was hard. So I withdrew and decided, hey, since I'm not in birth rooms as much anymore I was still a doula and a birth assistant, but not as much let's try to have a baby. Right, let's try to have a baby. So I took my birth control out.

Speaker 2: 42:10

I ended up finding a job as an admin and found out I was pregnant, and I actually switched jobs twice while pregnant, which was interesting because I ended up resigning from a birth organization that I no longer aligned with. They were very they were very narcissistic and racist, even though it was ran by a person of color which I really hated. It was really hard. And then I ended up going into the next birthy thing that I could find, which was just supporting a lactation clinic as an admin, and so I did that and then realized that was way too far for me. So because it was in Lake City and I live in Auburn, so I was driving like an hour and a half every day too far, too much, couldn't do it while pregnant. I ended up. I also didn't feel super valued there. I felt like I wasn't really needed.

Speaker 2: 43:02

So I went and got an admin job at a birth center that was really close to my house and I was like dope, this is great, let's do this. And pregnant, that's cool. I love these midwives Like. This is the birth center that I was at. That was kind of like a really, really big foundation for my birth work. Like a lot of my birth assistant births were there. A lot of my birth doula births were there. If it wasn't at a hospital, it was either at this birth center or associated I would say, 98% of the time associated with this birth center for home births. So they were like my peeps right.

Speaker 2: 43:32

So I was like cool, I can do this as much as this third time around. I really badly want to have a home birth. My husband was not about it. I wanted to have this redemption home birth this time around and say, oh my gosh, I did it, I actually did it. I'll just have an IV lock this time. My husband was like, babe, I don't know, I don't feel comfortable with that, you're the birthing person, but just know I'm not an agreeance. And I was like I don't want that energy going into my birth. So we ended up choosing a birth center birth and it just happened to be the birth center that I worked at, which was handy dandy. It was amazing. Actually it was still during COVID time.

Speaker 2: 44:10

So I wanted things to line up just so because if I ended up going into labor at night, I would be able to have my party birthday I wanted. But if I ended up going into labor during the day when the clinic was full or it was clinic days, I was only allowed to have two people present with me and I was like I can't do that, that's too hard. So, anyways, ended up going into labor at night. I had my midwife, who used to be my doula partner, but she is a full-on midwife now. She's been a midwife for three years and she was a midwife within her first year of midwifery and I was like you gotta be my midwife. I can't imagine anybody else. You're like a sister to me. Like this is awesome. She was great. I had her strip my membranes for two days in a row. The first time she stripped it I was like cool, things are moving. I'm feeling some stuff.

Speaker 2: 44:57

Let me just say I was also over being pregnant so early in this pregnancy. This pregnancy was way more intense. I was way more uncomfortable Granted, I'm gonna pull that like everybody else had it worse than me. Card, because there were so many other pregnancies. Especially as a birth worker, I can see how a lot of other people that were pregnant were worse off or feeling worse than me. I wasn't dealing with some of the things they were dealing with but, to validate my own feelings, it was really intense for me. It was a very how old were you by then? I was how old was.

Speaker 2: 45:26

I 28? Okay, yeah.

Speaker 1: 45:29

I just feel like the older you get, the harder it gets.

Speaker 2: 45:30

Yeah, and I felt that you were old, old but you were 18 with your first. Yeah, and I felt that. I definitely felt it in my body too. Like even with my second pregnancy I was like, oh, like I have Brax and Higgs. This is like really early on I started having Brax and Higgs, also a birth worker at that time.

Speaker 1: 45:46

The physicality of that job makes it so much harder to be pregnant. Plus, it's your third. You've got two other little ones running around Like you're gonna feel like crap.

Speaker 2: 45:55

And I definitely did Felt like a big old bowl of crap. And that was the first pregnancy I experienced lightning crotch. Everybody needs to know that lightning crotch is an actual thing. Have you heard of lightning crotch before? Yes, okay, yeah, lightning crotch is absolutely insane.

Speaker 2: 46:09

I hated it so much and I started experiencing it about like 25 weeks into my pregnancy and I was like my baby's not even that heavy, but she was tucked in and like deep into my pelvis very early on, and so I'm blaming it on that. It got to the point where I was 37 weeks and I was like so over it, to where I asked one of the midwives that I worked with. I was like I know that I'm not your client, but can you please, please, just check my cervix and tell me if anything is happening? And she was like, yeah, cool, I'll check you, that's fine. She's like I don't wanna stimulate things in there, but I'll check you to give you a little peace of mind. I was like okay, and then she told me that like my cervix was squishy, but I was completely closed and nothing was happening. I was so devastated. I was like I'm over this and then fast forward because I was so over wanting to be pregnant.

Speaker 2: 46:56

I asked my midwife to strip my membranes two days before my due date. She stripped my membranes and things were working and I was like, yeah, this is great, I could feel some contractions. And then I do things to like mentally prepare for labor. And then I lay down and I fall asleep and I wake up the next day and I'm like what, why I wanted to be in labor. So bad, this sucks. Things were working and when she checked me, I was already like chilling at four centimeters for my first check and I was like, dope, let's do this. And so I thought that contractions are really working.

Speaker 2: 47:31

And so the next day I had her come and strip my membranes again, which was the day before my due date and she strips my membranes and I get from a 4 and 1 half to a 5 and 1 half and I'm like dope, cool, Of course. She comes out all the bloody show on her hand like crazy, crazy. I was like do your due diligence girl? Like fuck me up in there because I'm over this. I was like so over it. And I know that she is super good at membrane sweeps. I have seen the work she has done. And so she was like OK, and of course I was like breathing hella hard, squeezing her arm like crazy. She's like are you OK? I was like just go, come on, just do it, Like go. It was a very interesting, very interesting feeling. It was painful, absolutely. But would I do it again? Hell yes, because I was so over being pregnant. So that kind of leads to how that turned out.

Speaker 2: 48:26

I ended up going into labor, but I was having a really hard time because I was scared that I was going to be in denial again. And then I was also scared that if I wasn't in denial, it would stall out and not actually be happening, especially since the day before it had stopped. So I'm in denial, I'm sitting backwards on the toilet a ton because I want things to progress, and I'm over here thinking I'm vocalizing through these. They're coming pretty often, but do I want to pick up everybody? At this point it's like 11 PM. Do I want to wake everybody up, get them to the birth center, for it to not be a thing.

Speaker 2: 49:01

And so my midwife this is actually a really cool fact is, my midwife was actually the student midwife of color that was at my son's birth and my son was actually her first catch as a student, so it was super awesome for her to catch my second. Her name is Mercedes Snyder. She's absolutely amazing and she was in her car outside my house trying to get a little bit of work done as well as take a mini nap, Even though I told her she could sleep on my couch and she's like no, it's OK. And I was like OK. So she went into her car, I was texting her and I was like I think things are happening, but I'm nervous. She was like do you want me to come chat with you? I was like yes, so we chatted and just with her in there and her seeing me and she sees me have these contractions and she's like Kiki, I think you're in denial right now. Things are happening and I think we might want to think about going. How does that sound to you? I was like OK, we can do that. I'm fine with that. So we start moving everything. Everybody gets up and awake.

Speaker 2: 50:02

I had this vision of making sure that my hair was braided because it was long at that time. I did not want to be a bald-headed birther like I was last time, and so I intentionally grew my hair out and wanted to feel like a goddess when I was giving birth, and so I braided my hair in French braids and I felt that that was like kind of pulling in my Native American side a little bit. And then the bathing suit top that I wore was very colorful and it made me think of my Hispanic side, bringing culture in as much as I possibly could. I hired the same doula, so that doula was also present. We get to the birth center. I am in full blown labor but between contractions I can still talk and stuff, which is great.

Speaker 2: 50:45

Getting to the space as soon as I got into the space, the first thing we did was put in a hep lock Because, with her being the student of my previous births, me having all of my fainting spells and stuff with my hemorrhage postpartum was actually her first experience with that yeah. And so she was like, yeah, we're not doing that again. I was like, yeah, let's not do that again. So I got a hep lock. I got some IV fluid just to start off with being hydrated and knowing that that was something that I wanted to do.

Speaker 2: 51:13

I was not anemic at this time in my pregnancy, but we didn't want to play any games. We didn't want to add any fuel to the fire. Things are going great. I ended up I wanted a water birth this time, and so, as contractions are happening, and boy did, I have a party birth. Everybody was there. My dad was there, my stepmom was there, my little sister was there. Both of my kids were there. One of my best friends was there. Both of my sisters, my older sisters were there, my little, brother was there?

Speaker 1: 51:41

How big was this room?

Speaker 2: 51:43

It was a decent-sized room, but let's just say they spilled out into the lobby and, thank god, clinic wasn't happening Because my sister's partner was also there. So everybody was there and I felt fine. I was like, cool, my people are here, it's go time, right and right as things are really picking up, and me and my midwife are like I think it's time for you to get in the birth tub because things might be getting close. I'm like I feel that way too, let's do it. So I get in the birth tub and things slow down and I was like what the actual fuck, man, why is this happening? Because I was literally it was feeling like things were rolling and rolling and I was like, cool, this relief is great. And I was like my contractions are gone. And so it just happened that my best friend that was there at the time was also 39 weeks pregnant and so she's like let's go walk the halls and so we go waddle our way up and down this hall and she was a birth doula, so she was doing the things and squeezing my hips and everybody else is kind of just letting us have our space and we were chatting and stuff.

Speaker 2: 52:47

Things were not progressing. My contractions were still really far apart and with being a birth worker, I was definitely talking to my midwife being like what are my options here? I'm thinking A-ROM. That's what I'm thinking right now. I'm thinking let's break my bag of water. And she's like I'm thinking the same. But let's check you.

Speaker 2: 53:04

I was like sounds perfect, because I was walking for like an hour and things weren't changing. So she checked me and I was completely devastated to find out I was only a six after six hours of labor. And at this point let's keep in mind, I was five and a half when things started picking up. And so I was like you have to be fucking kidding me For me to be in six hours of labor, feeling all the things, and I felt like my bag of water was going to break because I could feel the pressure of it against my cervix.

Speaker 2: 53:35

I knew that it wasn't a baby's head, because it was giving too much, like giving way too much. Sometimes I was giving a little bit of a grunt to help it pop or something, and it didn't. So that's why I was like let's see if A-ROM's a thing. So at that point we're both like yes, let's do A-ROM, but instead of being on the bed with A-ROM in order to engage my daughter's head further, to go down rather than back and become mal-positioned. We did the A-ROM on the birth stool with gentle guidance down. My husband was asleep in the other room with my kids at this time because it has been a while and he had worked a full day the day before, and so I was fine with that, and I had my doula behind me and as soon as she broke my water, I went from a six to a nine and a half and my next contraction was treacherous. It was completely insane and everything picked up from there, but right after my first contraction I was literally like somebody go get my husband Go get

Speaker 2: 54:35

my husband Because I knew that things have turned. So at that point I do get in the birth tub. Things pick up sooner rather than later. I'm pushing and it was the most primal and intense pushing I had ever done. I was, I felt like I was being so loud, screaming and stuff, but I actually my sisters and everybody else that was in the room was like girl, you weren't screaming, you were growling and it like freaked my sister out because it was all intense. And keep in mind, this sister in particular was her first birth, because with the other two births she was out of state so she couldn't make it, and so this was her first birth and I'm literally like you know, like I don't recreate it.

Speaker 1: 55:20

Yeah, I can't even create it.

Speaker 2: 55:21

I was just like growling and like, so intense and I wanted her out so bad because I was over being pregnant. I wanted her out and my sister almost passed out because of how intense it was for her to watch and I was in the moment. I was like, give me a hand. I need a hand to grab. I was holding the hand. I had a birth for a child around the time and I don't know. She gave me her hand and I didn't even realize it was hers and I was squeezing the hell out of it and I felt bad for her. But she got some good pictures from that angle that she was at, which is great. And then I birthed my daughter and it was great. I forgot to mention this. My oldest, who was eight at the time, wanted to catch my daughter, so she was in the birth tub with me during all of this super primal birthiness and in the pictures you can see she's actually a little freaked out because it's a lot going on. I had asked her before things got too intense if she wanted to still catch and she said yes. And we had a lot of discussion prior as well, a lot of education. That happened, and so my midwife, mercedes, was guiding her through the catching process and it was just beautiful. And I birthed her and I remember pushing out her head, thinking that it was her body, and Mercedes was like, oh, head out, her head's out. And I was like, oh my God, that's her head. I am so over this. And so I had to keep pushing and I'm pretty sure that in one point of me pushing my body just gave out and Mercedes had to pull just the tiniest bit probably. And then I was like, oh God, I was just so done, because I remember what it feels like. That is the only birth that I remember feeling like my baby actually coming out of my body, and I was like, oh God, so it worked, it was beautiful. And then we got out of the tub and went to the bed and I birthed my placenta there and everything was fine no hemorrhaging, everything was dandy. She for sure had a tongue tie which we ended up getting revised about one week postpartum and everything after that was good.

Speaker 2: 57:18

About seven months after that birth, that birth center that I was working at actually got bought out by a different birth center, which was the one that I happened to resign from, and they let me go via email. While I was in Mexico for my sister's bachelorette party which was really, really painful because I felt that I had such a connection to that birth center and it was such a big part of my birth worker journey and environment that I felt really let down and hurt by the way that they let me go. And at that point I was actually office manager, so I had got a promotion. When I was on maternity leave, I actually came back. Instead of being an admin, I came back as office manager, which was great, it felt great, it was awesome, but the let go process was wack.

Speaker 2: 58:01

Then I became a stay at home parent and after about a year of being a stay at home parent, I started the Birth as we Know it podcast. And so amazing, yeah, that's where I'm at now. I'm actually almost at a year of the podcast, and the Birth as we Know it podcast is a podcast that's dedicated to recognizing the many different ways birth unfolds and it's completely just about birth stories and experiences. So I talk to birth workers, I talk to birthing people, I talk to partners, I talk to providers and nurses and, yeah, that's where I'm at. Yeah, I love that I have some questions.

Speaker 1: 58:35

Yeah, sorry, I mean you were on such a roll. I didn't want to stop you at all. So was there anything that you would say was starkly different from your hospital birth, like what you were allowed to do? I know a lot of people come into the hospital birth space and different hospitals have different policies. Like were you allowed to immediately do skin to skin? Were you allowed to? I don't know if you wanted to have delayed cord clamping or anything like that. Was it similar to your other experiences, just in the hospital, or was there a lot of difference?

Speaker 2: 59:06

Yeah, I would say that at the time when I had my hospital birth, I wasn't educated enough on the things to look for or ask for in my hospital birth. I didn't know what delayed cord clamping was. I didn't know what a doula was Like. I was 19 and I was looking for midwifery care without actually realizing that my state insurance covered midwifery care. I didn't find that out until three days postpartum, which I was pissed about. So when it comes to actually preparing for things and getting what I quote unquote wanted at my hospital birth, I felt like the biggest thing I wanted was to go unmedicated, and I accomplished that. I got to try the birth tub, like I wanted. I just didn't like it and my nurse at the time was bad ass. I really wish I knew her name. I wish I remembered who she was, because she made a huge difference in my labor process. She was super awesome and the laborist was kind of an ass, but I got this minute.

Speaker 2: 1:00:03

That's what I would say about that, because my hospital birth, yes, was very different than my birth center and home birth, but the way I prepared for all of those was so different because each of my kids are also four years apart, so I had a lot of time to educate myself between the births to decide what I was going to do by the time I was pregnant.

Speaker 1: 1:00:19

Yeah, Okay. So I was being in the second birth and telling you that she's going to hang out until you deliver and then she said I'm going to be pissed if you go into labor after I go to work. I mean she totally set herself up for that, Right, Absolutely yeah. The sitting, I mean no, but like when you're feeling watched, that I mean like hormonally, that doesn't work.

Speaker 2: 1:00:45

Yeah, yeah. And it was so interesting because, you know, whenever anybody gets to the end of their pregnancies, they're like getting all of these texts or calls, like is the baby here yet? Is the baby here yet? Is the baby here yet? Is the baby here yet. And I was already post dates at that time. So everybody was like yo, is he here yet? Like what's actually happening. And so when my mom left, it was a weekend, so my husband was home, my daughter was home, we were just chilling, right. I think that it was the fact that I no longer felt like I had to host, that my body like relaxed and was just with my family, feeling relaxed, yeah, and I think that was just the oxytocin that was like it's time.

Speaker 1: 1:01:29

Right, right, yeah, now you feel safe. You feel, I mean not that your mom didn't make you feel safe, but when you feel like you can just chill. That's when you go into labor. So parents, people that want to make people go into labor, hovering is not the way to do it.

Speaker 2: 1:01:45

Absolutely not. So stop that You're going to make it so much worse.

Speaker 1: 1:01:49

Yeah, if you want to have that person go into labor, tell them you're leaving and going to work, because that's when they will go into labor. Let them go take a nap. It will happen. I just want to point out that at least for me and it sounds like for you birthing where you work is like so amazing. Yeah, it was great. Yeah, especially if you're on the unit that you work on.

Speaker 1: 1:02:17

So I worked. I work both times. The first time was I was a postpartum nurse. I didn't know anybody really in the labor and delivery unit. If you work in the hospital in labor and delivery and postpartum, you know that there's kind of like a turf war between those two units. So the vibe wasn't necessarily that great. It was fine. And then being able to go to my people afterwards was great. But birthing on the unit that you work on is just. It almost felt like a home birth to me because it was like it's halfway, halfway my home. I spent half my life there. So having my people, that was my party birth. So I really, really think people that are out there thinking oh, I don't want a birth where I work.

Speaker 1: 1:02:56

No, think about that really hard. See if you want your people there, because those are the people that are going to step up for you if something goes down.

Speaker 2: 1:03:04

Right, especially if you like where you work. You like the people.

Speaker 1: 1:03:08

If you hate where you work, please don't birth there, yeah yeah.

Speaker 2: 1:03:13

So that was super awesome. And after that birth I had happened to be finishing up my postpartum right as clinic was about to start the next day, and so I got to see the office manager at that time and then I got to see my coworkers and my admin and everything that was there and I was like look at what I made, look at my baby. You know, and it was just fun, it was nice, it was like a mini welcome party.

Speaker 1: 1:03:35

Yeah, it's so great to have like people stop by when you're in your room and like all of that fun stuff, and then I go through the shifts and get to see everybody and show off yeah, thanks again for every one of them.

Speaker 1: 1:03:47

So I try to bring awareness to what happens in this country when people of color go into the birth space. I think it's something that we all need to talk about and we all need to really just do better to acknowledge and be very conscientious about, because, even if you think that you don't have bias, I feel like we all do and we need to try extra hard to make sure that people of color are safe for so many different reasons, but essentially the biggest reason being that the mortality and morbidity rate for people of color in the birth space is so much higher in this country. It's astounding. So, as somebody that has birthed in all the different birth spaces, as a person of color as well, I want to give you the floor, if you are interested in taking it, to speak to all providers out there and let them hear what you have to say about what wisdom you can impart for everybody out there in the birth space.

Speaker 2: 1:04:53

That is such a heavy topic and I'm happy to speak on it. It's definitely heavy in more than just one way, and so, as a person of color that has birthed in three completely different settings, I will say that I definitely felt more seen in my out of hospital births and this could be because I wasn't like a number of people on the floor. You know as a nurse and we had mentioned it earlier that the providers that are supporting you in the hospital you're not their primary focus. They have multiple clients or patients that they're seeing at the same time and so I didn't feel like the primary focus in the hospital. But I knew that I was there and cared for and they knew that I was there. But fortunately my labor in the hospital went pretty quickly, so I wasn't there for like 24 hours in labor to be needing their attention for that spend of time. Like I birthed within the shift, so I only had one nurse with me and things like that. But in my home birth and my birth center birth I felt like I was birthing with my family. One because I could have my family present, my family could physically be present with me, and two because everybody that was in my space. I got to choose to be there and so I had the opportunity to look for a provider that looked like me. I had the opportunity to hire a doula that looks like me. I had the opportunity to even hire and see the birth assistant that supported the midwives that I was with be a person of color. So I felt like I had so much more agency in making the decisions and so much more of my voice was heard in my out of hospital births Also, not just during the birth either, but throughout my care, because I got to talk about all of the heavy shit.

Speaker 2: 1:06:45

I got to talk about everything that was like really impacting me, like some of my prenatals were more like therapy sessions than they were like a prenatal, like, yes, my providers would touch my belly, do some belly mapping to get hard tones, get my vitals and all that stuff, but then we would talk and we would connect and we would really get to talk about, one, how I was feeling that day. Two, what my fears and worries were at that time. And three, how we're going to work through those fears and worries before labor happens. And if there's this thing that happens during birth, that is really scary, how are we going to communicate? And also, I was so happy that when both situations in my out of hospital births like my hemorrhage as well as my labor stall, when I looked up I can see someone one that I knew and that was a familiar face, and two that I could trust because I spent so much time with them that I could literally trust my life in their hands, and that is why I chose to have out of hospital births.

Speaker 2: 1:07:52

When I did have a hospital birth, it was still a good experience. I didn't have this huge dramatic or traumatic experience because my labor was fortunately quick. My labor started on its own, like my situation made it to where it was a smooth sailing birth. I didn't have to get induced, I didn't need ptosin, I didn't need interventions that could lead to another intervention and potentially lead to a traumatic birth. I'll also say that interventions also lead to non-traumatic births. I just want to put that out there. Correct. Yeah, it made such a difference to me to be surrounded and have that community and also have my support team be supportive of the environment that I wanted to create, the ancestral presence that I wanted to be there, the cultural recognition that I wanted to be present in my space was accomplished in my out of hospital birth experiences. I know that if I were to ever have a child again which is not going to happen my husband and I are done, but if I was to ever get pregnant again, I would have an out of hospital birth again. I would choose to have another out of hospital birth because of the positive experiences that I've had, even though my home birth didn't end as I wanted it.

Speaker 2: 1:08:57

So, yeah, I guess, to actually answer your question, I would say to partners, providers, birth workers that are supporting people of color, to give as much space as you possibly can to hear them and what they're saying, to validate what they're experiencing especially if it's something that you've never experienced before and to provide resources to them.

Speaker 2: 1:09:23

And, if you can have those resources, be resources specifically for or ran by people of color, so they can have that connection and then also be open-minded to what they bring into the space that is valuable to them, whether that be someone wanting to bring a native drum and drum to their baby's heart tones when they're in labor, even if they're in the hospital. You might be a little loud for some people, so you got to kind of think about other people's spaces and how to ethically make that happen, but just giving your clients the space to have a voice. But also, when they do have that voice and express themselves one, don't take it personally, because it's not about you. Two, validate it and do something to help or support them in their feelings and listen to them Actually listen. Don't just be like, oh, okay, yeah.

Speaker 2: 1:10:17

And also one of the biggest things is don't let that one voice that you hear of a person of color be your description or experience or definition of how every other person of color will feel. Right now I'm voicing my opinion. Another person of color that comes on your podcast may not feel the same, and I am just an individual that happens to be a person of color. I am black, native American and Mexican and I wear that proudly, and there's going to be other people that don't feel the same way that I do and don't agree with what I'm saying. But I guess the primary takeaway would be make space for them to have a voice and listen when they talk.

Speaker 1: 1:10:52

Yeah, I love that. I think, like I had spoken about earlier, about the trauma that we as healthcare professionals come in with, I think that leads to some closed-minded energy I don't want to say behavior, it's energy and if you can just open yourself up, I feel like that is so important and I think that helps across the board, but especially if it's me as a very clearly white person walking into someone else's space.

Speaker 1: 1:11:20

I have no idea where they're coming from. I cannot possibly understand where they're coming from, and so to open myself up without making it about me is probably the only thing that I can do, but I have to put myself aside to be able to do that, so I think that's a really important part of this, and I also want to touch on what you said before about biases.

Speaker 2: 1:11:43

I am a 100 million percent believer that every single person that is walking on this planet has bias Every single person and the reason why I'm saying that is because a lot of people try to convince themselves that they're not biased. And everybody is, and your job especially, as, like a healthcare provider or a worker or someone that's providing a service or someone that is like customer service-based or whatever someone that works with people. You have to find what your biases are, own them when they're pointed out to you by people and just not necessarily change them, but recognize what you have to work on and not get defensive about it, but just know, like everybody has something to work on. I have a ton of stuff I got to work on. Kids will tell you that, but you know, so I just wanted to put that out there too.

Speaker 1: 1:12:34

Yeah, that's important, I think. The last question, because you've touched on almost pretty much everything that I usually ask is and I think you've touched on this, but I really like to ask everybody, because sometimes it's different If you could go back and talk to yourself like before you got pregnant that first time what would you want to say?

Speaker 2: 1:12:51

I would say trust your guts and your intuition, because even though I was young, I still knew what I wanted and I still knew what I was capable of, regardless of everybody around me telling me otherwise, and do your research. And that might be hard, because that's such a blanket statement. Do your research, you know, but to if, for example, I really wanted midwifery and I just didn't know what it was called at the time, I didn't know what to look for. And by the time I was postpartum, I did know, but I didn't accomplish it. And so, even if I did my research back then, I may not have landed in a midwife's care, but going through the experience of not being in midwifery care and then knowing that that's what I wanted, if I were to go back knowing what I knew before I went back if that makes any sense yeah, I would have chosen midwife, but I think that's it. And then, if I could do it per pregnancy, can I do it per pregnancy?

Speaker 1: 1:13:53

Oh yes, go for it.

Speaker 2: 1:13:54

So with my first I would go back and do research and look for midwifery care. For my second I would say be proud about who's in your space and get a damn head block.

Speaker 1: 1:14:07

I wish I could just tell that to everybody, because that saves so many problems.

Speaker 2: 1:14:11

It really does, because you have that access to that intravenous access and emergencies and, like me, being stubborn, even being in birthwork, I just wanted to make that decision. But postpartum, like retrospectively, I own that. I own that. I made that decision and I don't blame anybody else. If I had died it would have been because it could have been. Most likely would have been because I didn't have a head block and I didn't mention this before. But my mother-in-law is from Nepal and she grew up living in the villages in the mountains in Nepal and she said if I was in the village I would have died and that, like even to this day, the access that they have to healthcare in the Nepali villages right now is limited. It's better than when she was growing up, but it's limited and I still would have died. So that hit me hard. But okay, with my third, if I was to change anything about my third, it would be probably to not focus so much on the negative ways that I was feeling in my labor, in pregnancy, because I was very much.

Speaker 2: 1:15:19

My headspace when I was trying to get pregnant was hard. It took us a long time to conceive her, a lot was going on in the world and everything like that. So I felt like all of that came into my pregnancy and my birth. So it was a lot more stressed out. I carried a lot of negative or uncontrollable energy with me throughout that pregnancy and birth and it felt. I felt it in my labor. It was the most intense and when I was done I was like I'm never doing this again. And then, of course, as my daughter got older, I was like, oh, you're so cute, maybe, but I was like nah, because she's a sour patch and she will like literally kiss you and then slap you across the face and then kiss you again. So I totally get that. I had the same feelings.

Speaker 1: 1:15:58

Yes, the insight that we have with every birth is just so amazing, and I love that. Well, first of all, with our podcasts, we can share that insight and hopefully reach more people so that more people are making those decisions, because we don't have that village anymore. And so then, what do you have? Well, okay, we can try to broadcast it all out there and have as many resources as possible so that people that are going into this don't have to have the same experiences of trial and error that we had going into the space.

Speaker 1: 1:16:26

And luckily, I mean, it sounds like you didn't have a whole lot of trauma with your births, that they all went pretty well. I did with my first, but I was able to process it because I was a labor and delivery nurse and I was able to talk to people that could help me understand it. But it's just, I feel, so much for people that go into the birth space and have this trauma and they don't. They feel stuck or they're not able to bond with their baby or they're not able to get past it, and it's something that just stops them from progressing in life, because they've been through this and they don't know how to process it, and so I just think it's so important to share what our takeaways were. Was there anything else that you wanted to add that we didn't?

Speaker 2: 1:17:03

touch on. No, I feel like we covered a lot. I would say the main thing that I kind of want to say is to do like a another plug for my podcast by saying if you do want to hear my birth stories in more detail, my first three episodes of my podcast are actually my first three birth stories. There's a lot of stuff that I left out because you know this is, you can only say so much in one episode. But if you're intrigued, go ahead and give it a listen. And I'm primarily want to say I'm super thankful that our energies are matching so well because I feel like we're the same person in different areas of the world and I love that and I appreciate it and I'm glad that we got connected.

Speaker 1: 1:17:40

Yeah, me too. Thank you so much for reaching out that I mean I've been trying and with my son Howling in the background, I'm just going to go with it.

Speaker 1: 1:17:51

I've been trying to really just send out that energy, like the people that I need to come in contact with. We will find each other, and I feel like the podcast was like the first step towards that, and so now I'm trying to find that with all of the other things, and I just love that you are one of those people and so I really thank you. That, you, that you reached out.

Speaker 1: 1:18:12

Well, kiona, as my son is screaming in the background, thank you so much for being a part of this podcast, for reaching out, and I really appreciate the conversations that we had today, being able to be on your podcast and you coming online, and I just encourage everybody to listen to the birth as we know it podcast and all of Kiona's birth stories and, if you, are you still being? Are you still?

Speaker 2: 1:18:35

doing. I am doing doula work very gently right now because I have a young one and my youngest is two and I'm also still a birth assistant, but I haven't been in that realm for a while as well. But I'm more of. If you need someone to chat about birth, I'm there and I love it. You know, if you have questions, I'm there, I'm just. I just love being in the birth community. I'm just not in the birth space as much.

Speaker 1: 1:18:55

Yeah, and how can we? How can somebody reach out to?

Speaker 2: 1:18:58

me. So I actually have my own website and Instagram page. So if somebody wants to follow me on Instagram, they can follow me at birth, as we know it podcast, and if somebody wants to potentially share their own birth story on my podcast or connect, you can go to kionnesenbaumcom and so that's K-I-O-N-A-N-E-S-S-E-N-B-A-U-M dot com and then you could just fill out the guest request form.

Speaker 1: 1:19:28

Awesome, well, thank you so? Much. I am really excited for this episode here. Yeah, thank you.

Speaker 2: 1:19:32

I'm excited too, and I feel like we're going to stay connected after this.

Speaker 1: 1:19:37

Yeah, absolutely yeah.