Birth Journeys: Lifting the veil on the birth experience
Did your childbirth experience go as planned? Then The Birth Journeys Podcast® is for you! We share powerful and transformative birth stories that illuminate the realities of childbirth. Hosted by a labor nurse and prenatal coach who specializes in transformational coaching techniques, this podcast goes beyond traditional birth narratives to foster healing, build trust, and create transparency between birthing individuals and healthcare providers.
In each episode, we dive into essential topics like birth preparation, debunking common misconceptions, understanding hospital procedures, and promoting autonomy in the birthing process. We also bring you the wisdom and insights of experienced birth workers and medical professionals.
This is a safe and inclusive space where every birth story is valued, honored, and deserves to be heard. Join us in exploring the diverse and unique experiences of birth givers, and discover how transformational coaching can empower your own birth journey.
Contact Kelly Hof at: birthjourneysRN@gmail.com
Birth Journeys: Lifting the veil on the birth experience
Jennifer Byrnes: Navigating Parental Grief and Offering Genuine Support
When the waves of parental grief and loss crash upon us, navigating their unpredictable swells can be a journey as unique as our fingerprints. Therapist Jennifer Byrnes, LPC, PMH-C, EMDR certified therapist, joins me to explore these deeply personal experiences, shining a light on the many forms grief can take — from the pain of miscarriage and infant loss to the silent suffering of fertility challenges. Through our discussion, Jennifer helps us understand that mourning has no prescribed path, and that the company we keep can make all the difference in weathering the storm.
This episode isn't just about the struggle; it's also about the solace found in support networks. We delve into the nuances of assisting those in the throes of grief, discussing the importance of listening and responding to individual needs rather than leaning on our own assumptions. Jennifer and I tackle the complexities of what it means to grieve 'productively', uncovering the varied ways people express and process their pain.
Lastly, we confront the challenge of balancing joy and sorrow when life's milestones intersect with another's loss. With Jennifer's insights on EMDR and other therapeutic approaches, this episode offers a guiding hand to those seeking to navigate the complex emotional landscapes of grief and support others through their darkest hours.
To connect with Jennifer go to www.mytherapygoals.com
The links below are resources discussed in the episode:
psychologytoday.com
grief.com
emdria.com
Empty Cradle Broken Heart by Deobrah Davis
The Art of Holding by Karen Kleinerman
Ianacare - Caregiving Support App
https://apps.apple.com/us/app/ianacare-caregiving-support/id1441737626
Join the Bump & Beyond Online Community for moms & moms-to-be!
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Kelly Hof: Labor Nurse + Birth Coach
Basically, I'm your birth bestie! With me as your coach, you will tell fear to take a hike!
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Connect with Kelly Hof at kellyhof.com
Medical Disclaimer:
This podcast is intended as a safe space for women to share their birth experiences. It is not intended to provide medical advice. Each woman’s medical course of action is individual and may not appropriately transfer to another similar situation. Please speak to your medical provider before making any medical decisions. Additionally, it is important to keep in mind that evidence based practice evolves as our knowledge of science improves. To the best of my ability I will attempt to present the most current ACOG and AWHONN recommendations at the time the podcast is recorded, but that may not necessarily reflect the best practices at the time the podcast is heard. Additionally, guests sharing their stories have the right to autonomy in their medical decisions, and may share their choice to go against current practice recommendations. I intend to hold space for people to share their decisions. I will attempt to share the current recommendations so that my audience is informed, but it is up to each individual to choose what is best for them.
Hello, today I have with me Jennifer Burns, lpc, pmhc and EMDR Certified Therapist. Jennifer is a therapist specializing in perinatal mental health and trauma. She is the mother of two boys and she is here today to talk about parents coping with grief and loss. Jennifer, welcome and thank you for joining me.
Speaker 2:Hi Kelly. Thanks so much for bringing me back again, especially for a topic that is so important and, I think, touches everyone in one way or another, whether it's their loss or whether it's someone they love experiencing a loss. I think it's something that everyone needs to know something about so that they can best support the people around them.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I could not have said it better. I noticed that it's something that comes up a lot, especially in my line of work, and I always no matter how much I try to prepare for it feel very ill-equipped to emotionally support people. So I'm always looking to help others understand that and put it out there so that we can all try to do better to support each other, because I feel like if I'm struggling and I deal with this a lot I think everybody else is probably struggling too.
Speaker 2:Absolutely, and a lot of times, because we never know what someone might be going through in life.
Speaker 1:So to just kind of walk through this, having a little bit of extra knowledge about how to best support people in general, regardless of sort of what they're going through, yeah, so I just I really appreciate these talks that we have, where we talk about difficult things and how to get through them, because I need them for myself and I feel like if we can share these conversations, then other people will benefit.
Speaker 2:Absolutely so before we get started, I just kind of want to issue a trigger warning for everyone who's listening that we'll be discussing sensitive topics today, including things like miscarriage and infant loss, so please listen with care. Everyone has a different threshold for this and if you're going through something right now or you're struggling to support someone else, this may or may not be the best time to listen to this podcast, but resources will also be provided at the end of the episode and in the show notes, so hopefully you can find some support there also. Yeah, so I want to just first start by talking about the many different kinds of loss that can happen throughout the perinatal period. Perinatal meaning from pregnancy all the way through the postpartum period of one year and sometimes up to three years, depending on who you're talking to. Some of the most obvious ones include miscarriage or infant loss following delivery or stillbirth, things like that, but others are less visible and less talked about. They all matter and they all impact people differently, so I want to kind of talk about, you know, the more obvious ones and also the ones that people tend to maybe not even realize could be considered loss. So things like grief and loss around fertility challenges or the inability to conceive, even with medical intervention, and that's one that impacts a lot of people but isn't often talked about, particularly within the context of grief and loss. So that is something that's important and matters. Loss of a pregnancy due to necessary termination for medical reasons is a big one, and it's devastating to those who have to experience it. So loss can really touch anyone those who have to experience it. So loss can really touch anyone, and the process of grieving is a unique and a personal one for each person who experiences it.
Speaker 2:One of the things that I see a lot in my practice people come in often with this idea that they're supposed to be moving through the five stages of grief in a specific way, and those are commonly known as, like denial, anger, depression, bargaining and acceptance, and so there's a lot of struggle often for my clients who come in and thinking that that's supposed to be the way that they're doing it and not knowing what's wrong with them in quotation marks if that's not their process, and so I just wanted to say that initially, this was developed.
Speaker 2:Those stages were developed to explain the process of acceptance of a terminal illness, and since that time they've been extrapolated into other grief and loss situations, and I bring that up only because there's no wrong way to do this. Many people move through some of the stages, all of the stages, in different orders. They may skip, they may go back to different stages all this to say that you know there's nothing wrong with you or your loved one If they're going on a different grief journey. It may look entirely different than what we traditionally tell people they can expect to experience. So I just kind of want to lead with that piece because I think there's just a lot of confusion and upset and distress around people's journey looking different.
Speaker 1:I agree. Yeah, I think that that's really important. To make sure that people understand that everybody's grief journey is completely different.
Speaker 2:important to make sure that people understand that everybody's grief journey is completely different, absolutely so. When I think about grief or when I talk to my clients about grief, I really characterize it more like a storm in the ocean. In the midst of the storm, you've got waves that are huge, they're strong, they crash very closely together, the water's very chaotic, it's churning, and then, as the storm moves away from whatever that central location was the waves, they'll still remain strong, they'll still crash together, but you'll notice that they're lessening in intensity. They're crashing less frequently, the waters are still churning, but they're not as chaotic. And then, continuing to move further and further away, the ocean becomes calmer and calmer.
Speaker 2:This is not to say that when someone has experienced a really significant trauma or a really significant loss, that the ocean will be completely calm. All the time I tell people to expect that when those waves do come which they will they'll often be very unexpected, in response to something that people could not have anticipated, and they're really big. So a lot of the work that I do with those clients is learning how to ride the wave and understand that that will never completely go away, but things can feel calmer the further away that we get. So that doesn't mean that there's not lots of work to be done, particularly if there's a lot of trauma that needs to be processed. But, generally speaking, things can feel calmer more often when we move away from that initial chaotic experience or loss or trauma and there's no finite end or timeline for one's grieving process. The hope is that someone will be able to ride the waves that come with less distress over time.
Speaker 2:And the timing piece is also one that a lot of my clients struggle with as well, particularly around other people's expectations of their timeline. In my experience, my clients have said that they often feel like they get a year right their child died and they get a year where people are very understanding, they're very supportive, and then after that year there's this sort of expectation that things will go back to normal. And when they don't because who fully can recover from the loss of a child? It's always going to be sad. There's sort of that additional distress and pressure of like, well, why am I not done yet? Why am I not through this experience yet and why are people expecting me to be so? It's a lot of work with them around helping them come to terms with their own process or blocking out the white noise of other people, their expectations of grief.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I can't even imagine.
Speaker 2:There's no playbook for how to handle grief and loss around the death of a child, around death in general, but in particular the death of a child, which, for the other but again there's no right or wrong way to do this keep themselves busy right. They will be very involved in the funeral and memorial planning process. They will be very focused on sort of all of the details that come after a death in general, which, again, I just I wish more agencies understood that bombarding people with things to do in this particular situation isn't always the most helpful thing and can be really overwhelming. Sometimes people like and need that as part of their process, to feel like they have control over something, to feel like they can do something with their time, because otherwise sitting with the grief out of the gate might just be too much. So this can be part of their healing process. And others sometimes struggle to do this and they need more time to process the emotional aspects of the loss before they can even begin to take steps toward managing aspects of, you know, just daily living. And then you know planning the memorials or planning the funerals, and this is where loved ones and friends can step in and be a part of that support, those practical details that even just offering food, feeding someone because often people are not eating, they're not sleeping well. So having a support system around you to help with those details if that's not where you're at, can be very helpful. And neither of these approaches to grief is wrong, and people just move into those spaces at different times.
Speaker 2:So one of the primary functions of the grieving process includes finding ways to make meaning of the loss, which sounds impossible. When you think about losing a child, what meaning could there possibly be? This isn't so much about figuring out why this happened or you know, if you believe in a higher power, why that being would allow something like this to happen to you but more about how do you take this loss and find meaning, moving forward. So how do we make sense of this loss moving forward? How do we honor our child? And again, this can look incredibly different from person to person and family to family. There's absolutely no right way to do this.
Speaker 2:I have some clients who want to hang pictures of their child in their living room. I have other clients who do not want to do that for various reasons. I have clients who create special Christmas ornaments or holiday ornaments or things, finding ways to include their child in celebrations in a way that is meaningful to them and other people who they can't do that right now, and that's okay. So there are all of these different ways that people can and do find ways to honor their child, to make meaning of the loss, and this is by no means an exhaustive list. People get very creative and I've heard some wonderful ways that people have found to channel their grief and their sadness and anger into things that are quite lovely at the end of the day, obviously not taking the place of their child being with them in person, but nonetheless not forgetting them either. Now do you want to ask your question?
Speaker 1:Well, I think you're going to get to it, because it was like how can we support without projecting our journey on other people? And you did cover making grief meaningful without making it mean something like without creating a story around it.
Speaker 2:that means something negative have answers to questions sometimes right.
Speaker 1:Yes, exactly.
Speaker 2:And if we get that piece of trying to understand the reason why something happens, we may never get an answer, or we may never get a satisfactory answer, right?
Speaker 1:because it can just cause more pain to think of some of those things.
Speaker 1:Mm-hmm. Yeah, and I think there was another aspect of making grief meaningful oh, I think it was kind of what you were saying is sometimes like you said, not being able to sit with the grief right away and having I'm imagining feelings right now and trying to put them in words. So, which is a big part of why I have such a hard time helping people with grief, because I try to be empathetic and then I put myself like, right now there's all these emotions coming up because I'm trying to put myself in the situation of grief and what I feel is just a lot of energy, and this is probably just my personal way of expressing grief and I want to do something with that energy. And so I imagine myself if I were to be in a situation of grief personally and I had to deal with it, I would probably be putting my energy into all of those tasks to make something meaningful right now for this loss, so that we could all share in that meaningful memorial or whatever it is.
Speaker 1:And I think that's probably a lot of why we have these customs around grief, because we have this immediate need to make it meaningful, and all those doers like myself with all this pent up energy, have taken grief and said this is how we need to do it, because this is what worked for me, and maybe people that you know I'm just thinking through history that this is how this came about and maybe people that aren't ready for that were just sitting with their grief and letting all the doers do so. I'm trying to find a way to help people like me who want to make it meaningful without projecting their journey on other people, while also helping people that may be on the other side of the spectrum or maybe going. There's something completely different that I'm not imagining how we can all move forward in a productive way that doesn't complicate anyone else's grief or that isn't authentic to our grief journey, if that makes sense.
Speaker 2:It does, and I think that a big part of it is how do we define what productive grief looks like? The doers can define productive grief as, like I've got this checklist of things that I have to do in order to prepare for the memorial, in order to even just be able to move through someone's home without feeling when there's a loss. There's also sort of a loss of ambient noise or, you know, there's a loss of expectation there. You know we'll have their home set up to bring a baby home.
Speaker 2:And when they don't bring that baby home, or they bring that baby home and there's medical complications or if you know, unfortunately there's just a sudden loss, there's a whole lot of that space not necessarily feeling safe or comforting anymore. Other people take part in those things remaining there, and so I think, at the end of the day, the biggest lesson that we can take from this supporters is we listen to what they're saying, they need, or we are looking beyond what they're saying too, and that's not necessarily making assumptions about what they want or need, but I mean, so much of our communication is nonverbal anyway, right? So those of us out there myself included who tend to be people pleasers are probably likely to say whatever it is we think it will take to get somebody out of our space, and it's important to be able to sort of read the room as a supporter and you know, kind of you brought up energy earlier, kind of move with that, and maybe that particular day isn't the day to bring the kind of support that you think might be useful. It could come back at a different time, because one of the things that I also hear often is that people who've had a loss often feel very responsible for the feelings of others around their loss. Right, like, someone has a loss and obviously you know other family members are going to feel that loss too, right? Grandparents, other people who are very close to them. They have their own grieving process.
Speaker 2:But I've seen a lot that my clients have. They feel very overwhelmed because people are sharing their feelings about their loss with my clients and my clients are like what the F? I don't have the energy to deal with your stuff. You've got to take that somewhere else. And I encourage them in a nicer way, I suppose, to sort of say that and to support them in being like no, you are not responsible for listening to them share their grief at this point in time. Yes, their grief is real. Yes, their loss is real too, but they need their own support system. That's not you. You are grappling, you're the worst imaginable and I think it often comes from a very loving place of like. I want to join my grief with yours.
Speaker 2:I don't think from a malicious place. I don't think it always comes from a place of like. I want to join my grief with yours. I don't think from a malicious place. I don't think it always comes from a place of like. You know people trying to make it about themselves but what it does is it sets the person who's had the loss up for having to listen to additional grief and to offer comfort to people outside of themselves and like that's just not how this should work, at least not in the immediate aftermath.
Speaker 2:Oftentimes people may want to offer what they think the person who's had the loss should be doing or need to be doing, particularly if there's something around a potential medical malpractice suit, like they'll often hear. Like you need to take this doctor to the cleaners, you need to file this lawsuit, and yeah, maybe that is true and that is something that's very personal, that the individual needs to decide for themselves. Maybe that's not the time to make that decision right. That's such a big undertaking that I think it can create some feelings of resentment from people who've had a loss toward their support system. When people are too overly opinionated with the best of intentions, right, they want to see their loved one get justice, and that doesn't necessarily have to be immediate.
Speaker 1:Well, yeah, they have like 18 or 21 years to do that when it's a medical malpractice. For if it's a birth-related medical malpractice, and while that's from the perspective of the health practitioners, that's a big scary thought, but also that gives the parent time to figure out what to do with that grief and loss and decide whether that is something that needs to happen for them to feel like justice was served or there is also not even justice was served to make sure that it doesn't happen to other families. I think that's usually the place where it comes from, not usually from a place of punishment or justice, necessarily. But also, is that part of my journey? Do I need to do that Because we all know that's not going to bring back the loved one? But is that part of my journey? Do I need to do that Because we all know that's not going to bring back the loved one? But is that part of my healing and grief?
Speaker 2:journey Absolutely, and to have time to sit with all of the extra consequences to going that route right, like that's enormously emotionally taxing and you may have to tell your story over and over again and I think you have to be in a place where you feel like you can take that on on top of just the loss itself. And so, again, like I think this comes from a place of people trying to be helpful, trying to be supportive, I think the people who are trying to offer support feel helpless themselves, right, and oftentimes we talk way too much when we want to show that we love and care and support someone. So I really want everyone out there to know who's had a loss or who's trying to support someone with a loss, that you are not obligated to soothe others' feelings about their loss, no matter how much it deeply impacts them or how close you are to that particular individual. How much it deeply impacts them or how close you are to that particular individual, like that is just not your role right now. So you know, with that being said, people do really struggle with knowing what to say or do when there's the loss of a child. Right, it's so big, it's so scary, it's so overwhelming.
Speaker 2:Again, a parent who's lost a child, and then you have probably friends and family who have children. It's their biggest fear too, right, like, oh my gosh, this happened to someone. So their anxiety is often a little bit higher and their grief again is for the person who's had the loss. But I think in some ways it's fueled by their fear that this could happen to them. So what can you say to assuage that deep and excruciating pain? So honestly, sometimes it's helpful to say nothing at all and to just show that you love and support someone with a hug or a touch on the shoulder so that they know that you're there, but they don't feel obligated to ask you how you're doing or to answer questions. All of the questions are so overwhelming sometimes and our nervous system's already in high gear or it's shut down. We can go the other direction too and things can just feel like you're moving through quicksand.
Speaker 2:Sometimes it can be helpful to say how much you care about them and how much this absolutely sucks and is unfair, and you can leave it there, and sometimes you just listen. If somebody has not had much to say and all of a sudden they have a million things to say, you sit and listen, you clear your calendar for an hour or however long it takes, and you're there, right, if you're their support person, you're there to the extent you know I get you know life. We all're their support person. You're there to the extent you know I get you know life. We all have things going on, but if that's what they need in that moment and we can give it to them, that's the best thing that we can offer them.
Speaker 2:If you knew the child, you can share how much that child also means to you and things that you loved about them or a special memory. A lot of times and again I think, read the person, read the room. They may or may not be in a place where they can hear those things, but I also know a lot of times people like to know that their child was loved by other people besides them and that there are special memories that other people have. So, again, depending on the relationship you have with that person, that can be enormously loving and supportive. Some of the things that tend to not be as helpful as they're intended to be Again, I hear this a lot, and even just outside of grief and loss, personally I don't always find them very helpful. This is definitely a know. A person read the room situation, so things that could be considered platitudes that are religious or otherwise.
Speaker 2:Like everything happens for a reason you know, this is all part of God's plan and of course you know the intention is that they're supposed to be soothing and reassuring, but they can also come across as really minimizing the pain someone's experiencing, particularly if they're wrestling with existential questions around their loss, Like why would God take away my child? In that circumstance those are probably not going to land very well. And again, I think a lot of times this comes from like what do you say? And people fall back on these things because we're told that they're useful.
Speaker 2:But from a therapeutic perspective from all the people that I've worked with that I've had any kind of loss those things tend to be less helpful and I think it just comes from a place of we want to say something supportive but we don't know what we can say and so we fall back on that. So I would say, if that's your go-to, really read the person, really read the room, and if it just doesn't feel like that's probably going to land well, you can't go wrong with asking if you can give them a hug and just telling them that you love them and care about them. It's also helpful. This is one that I think I might get some pushback on, but I think it's helpful to refrain from asking the grieving person what you can do to help.
Speaker 1:Which is a huge question. My opinion, the problem with it is if you are having trouble with that question, if that's a huge question for you, like you don't know how to help imagine how that feels for the other person.
Speaker 2:Yes, 100%. The overwhelm is typically already so great and they're already having to make so many decisions, decisions nobody wants to make. We don't want to be making these decisions. So it's so draining and that even if someone needs help or wants help, they may not be able to articulate what those needs are at that time or they might even be uncomfortable asking, and so I think in this circumstance it's often more helpful to do rather than just ask. So you know things that we typically know that most people would find helpful arranging a meal for them, having an Uber Eats sent to them, doing a grocery delivery, send a gift card for food or groceries, a cleaning service, a laundry service, these things. Again, hopefully, you know the person pretty well or know someone who knows the person well and could help arrange for that in a way, because we don't want it to be intrusive, we want it to be helpful, but those are things that we know tend to fall by the wayside just because you're dealing with something so big. So those practical things I think we can assume most people need some help and support around.
Speaker 2:Or, if you don't ask the person, ask other people around that person that are very close, right, If their parents have come into town or they're in-laws or they have a brother or sister-in-law that's very close to them. Ask that person that are very close, right, If their parents have come into town or they're in-laws, or they have a brother or sister-in-law that's very close to them. Ask that person like hey, where is there a hole in the flow of daily living right now? Where can I add in something that would be useful to everyone? Right, Because, again, those people are having their own grieving process but they are probably in a little bit of a better situation to sort of be able to guide where the help might be most useful.
Speaker 2:So just details of daily living for people who are grieving can feel really insurmountable. So any practical help that one can provide or outsource can be really useful. So, again, just recapping, probably not the most helpful thing to ask a person what you can do to help and I think this is something that we say because we genuinely want to be helpful, but it just I think most people are likely to say oh no, I'm good, I'm fine.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:So another thing that often comes up, particularly in my line of work with people in the perinatal period, is how to handle a situation in which a friend or family member might have news of their own pregnancy or pregnancy milestone or childhood milestone that they wish to share. This can be particularly painful for individuals who've experienced a profound loss or are having just a really, really difficult fertility journey, and so it can be a tricky balance because, of course, like, the news that you want to share is celebratory and you know, a lot of times the person that wants to share is close to the person who's grieving. So it's it's this balance of like, yes, my news is important, and how do I share this in a way that comes across as thoughtful and empathetic? Because certainly you are entitled to share wonderful things about your life, and if you are very close to someone, we also want to just be aware that that may be difficult. So some things to consider include sharing the news with that friend or family member personally, rather than having them see it on social media, because I think that can feel like a real slap in the face. They're not expecting to see it. They're obviously going to see all the congratulations that comes along with that and they're just very ill prepared for that, which I think just can feel pretty awful. And I don't think most people want to do that to their friend or family member.
Speaker 2:And so with this kind of comes some debate about whether or not it's better to send a text message with the news to a grieving friend, or whether to call them or to tell them in person. And you know some of the reasoning for that being like, if you send a text message, they can have some time to process and respond without pressure. Other times it can create some feelings of isolation or, again, alienation from that other person who's very happy, or they can assume that that person's trying to avoid a little bit. And I think, more than anything else, this really just comes down to how well you know the person, and I don't think there is a perfect way to do this right, Like we can know someone inside and out and we can make a misstep. If and when that happens, then we do what we can to repair, because obviously the intention is not to hurt, but it can still be hurtful.
Speaker 2:So expressing to them that you understand that this could be really hard to hear and that you don't expect them to respond in a particular way can take some of the pressure off of people, because most of the time the person receiving the news does feel very happy for them, or a part of that person feels very happy for them and at the same time they're struggling with their own grief. And you know it's really important to understand that one doesn't negate the other. They can exist together. And yes, that's very complicated for the person who's grieving and I hear a lot of angst about this sitting in my office. But the bottom line is I think, generally speaking, people would rather hear it from the person. Text message or phone call typically seem to be preferable to like face-to-face right, because if we're face-to-face we sort of feel compelled to respond in a particular way, but we certainly don't want them to find out through other channels.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I feel like also giving people a heads up that you are trying, you know, and then how would you prefer to hear the news if giving them the choice, unless it's a unexpected event? Do you have any other topics that you are wanting to touch on, because I wrote a couple things down. If you're open to that, absolutely.
Speaker 2:The only other thing I would say is that, obviously, the grief of losing a child or any significant loss or any significant type of grief, again, things around like difficulty conceiving things of that nature, these are not things that people have to try to struggle through alone. Again, there's no specific process that we walk through, so you may be having all of these different things happening to you at the same time, and they may be I mean often are very overwhelming, can be very distressing, particularly if there's a significant additional trauma on top of the itself.
Speaker 2:So there's different kinds of therapy available and I just want to mention a couple of those things. So obviously there's different support groups and I did make mention of a couple resources for that. Me personally as a therapist again, I do a lot of work with EMDR. It's not meant to replace the grieving process. That is not what it's about. But if there is a lot of distress around a particular event or you're very stuck in your grieving process, these can be things to sort of like loosen that up.
Speaker 2:So one of the things I like people to know coming in is that working through the trauma of a loss of a child does not mean that you will forget or not be sad about that loss. Emdr or any therapy cannot change the fact that something terrible has happened. We cannot make it okay that your child has died. That will never be okay. But what we can do is reduce the distress you feel when thinking about your child and the loss, right?
Speaker 2:Because oftentimes there's this very big internal conflict of like I want to think about my child, I love my child, but if I think about my child it's too painful, and so what we want to do is sort of help people be able to separate the distress from simply thinking about their child, so that they can access those more positive feelings and memories that are likely there but just covered up by the significant loss. And so people also like general talk therapy with a grief therapist or support group, because grief can be really isolating, especially like the loss of a child. Again, this is most people's biggest fear. They don't like to talk about it. So, finding a good support network of people who have been through something similar. Again, proceed with caution here, just because we don't want to put you in a situation where the support group itself is so triggering for you.
Speaker 2:So, I think something can be helpful to have an individual therapist and a support group so that you kind of go back and forth, because sometimes you might find it helpful, other times you might need to step away, but you'll still have support, sort of on both sides.
Speaker 2:So you know, maintaining connections with others even though I know it can feel very heavy, exhausting and hard is really important during this grieving process because of how isolating it can be, particularly around this kind of loss. So you can find therapists who specialize in these interventions and areas through websites like psychologytodaycom, there's griefcom, there's emdriaorg if you're looking specifically for an EMDR therapist and a really good read is called Empty Cradle, broken Heart, and this is written by Deborah Davis and she is one of the perinatal gurus around grief and loss of a child. So this is actually a really excellent resource for both practitioners and also just people who are going through this and either they've had the loss or they want to support someone with a loss. So at the end of the day, the loss of a child at any point is one of the most, if not the most, painful thing a person can experience, and I hope that these discussions and these points and resources can be helpful for anyone who's struggling or who loves someone who's struggling.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's really helpful. We'll be including all of those resources in the show notes. There was a couple of things that were coming up for me. First of all, I need some company to make a grief registry where it's just all the things that commonly are needed by people that are going through this process. I think we have meal trains, but that's not enough. You know, like we need to be able to just be like I need like a checklist of all the things. Okay, I need this right now, I need this right now, I need this right now, and then people can just sign up for it once it's done. When somebody's done enough, it's done. So somebody out there please do that, because it's not going to be me.
Speaker 1:A couple of things that came up for me was how I think part of our culture here in America is that we have to have this facade, that we have it all together and we can't show what's going on inside. I think of things like grief and I'm tying it into birth and the things that we have talked about before, about how visceral and physical and how that process is very similar to grief in all of the feelings that you're going through, whether it's physical pain or emotional pain, that when you're going through these processes. And I'm thinking of an experience that I've had when I lived in the Dominican Republic surrounding grief. There was an experience that I had where the pastor's wife was grieving the loss of her husband and this doesn't exactly parallel the loss of a child, but the process that I was able to witness was everyone showing up and just surrounding her home and sitting, while a couple of very close people inside sat with her and she just expressed all of the emotions that she was having. I mean, it wasn't a calm process going on inside. Everybody walked in and quietly paid their respects, one at a time, and there was someone at the door that was allowing people to enter and pay their respects.
Speaker 1:And I don't think when I walked in that I said anything. I think I just touched her. Maybe I did, you know, maybe it was I'm so sorry, I love you and touched her shoulder. I don't think she was even aware that we were there. I mean, like there's this awareness, but she was on another plane of existence at that point, almost like when your frontal lobe checks out when you're in labor, and we don't allow people to grieve like that, and I feel like that's part of sitting with the emotions, just letting them all come out and having a safe space to do that, and I think that was probably one of the most beautiful displays of supporting someone through grief that I've ever witnessed, and I wish that it was something that we could do better at tapping into in this country and just allowing people to move through that grief.
Speaker 1:And it did come in waves when she was allowed to have all of those emotions come out. It was a process where it was loud and then it was quiet and it was intense and then it was calm and it was literally just like a storm. It was a cyclic storm of all of these emotions and she verbalized all of her feelings. Like one part of what I remember her saying over and over again was you weren't finished, and my understanding of that was that the journey, the mission, wasn't finished. But she was able to consistently express that and I feel like that was just so crucial to her being able to heal and pick up and move forward in her life and that she was and that people picked up all of the other, you know, without a grief registry just knew how to pick up and support her in this process and do the things, and just they moved through this process for her so beautifully and I wish that we could just recreate that in america.
Speaker 2:I think our society in general here is also just not very receptive to grieving processes Like about even just like from a professional work standpoint. Right, you get three days of bereavement leave Like what even is that? What can you do in those three days? A lot of times you can't even like do all the things you need to do in order to plan and have a funeral and memorial, and that you're expected to be back to work.
Speaker 2:you know three days later, and I just don't think our society is very accepting of different practices and different religions have different traditions. Right Like sitting Shiva for you know, the Jewish faith and things like that. But generally speaking, like you know, the professional world just is not very helpful in that way.
Speaker 1:Yeah, the other thing is that I keep thinking of is and this is a meme that I've seen it's this picture of someone that is going through something, whether it's depression, anxiety, grief, whatever the overwhelming emotion is. So the person comes up to the person that's having the anxiety or the negative emotion and they say what can I do? And the person says I don't know. And then what ultimately happens is the person that's trying to help says would you like me to build you a nest? And the grieving person says yes, and so they build a little blanket nest and then they say would you like to get in the nest? And the person gets in the nest and then the person that's helping says would you like me to get in the nest with you? And it's just, sometimes you just need to get into it with that person, just sit with them and be in that space with them so that they don't feel so alone in the current space that they're in. And I think that that's I don't know.
Speaker 1:I'm sure you have some opinions on how that might just be a small thing that we could wrap our heads around.
Speaker 2:No, I love, love, love that, and I think that Karen Kleiman, who is one of again another one of these you know, really well-regarded perinatal practitioners and trainers. She has a book called the Art of Holding right. Yeah, it's really all about sort of that exact thing which is like we don't have to do anything Sometimes. We just have to make space for with and hold that grief right, not be afraid of it, not try to change it or move it.
Speaker 2:Sometimes it just needs to be, and so that what you shared speaks very much to me about that practice. Right, like we're in there, we're holding it with them, and that's okay, and maybe that's all that that needs to happen, right then?
Speaker 1:Yeah, we definitely overcomplicate everything. I think Mm-hmm. Yeah, Well, Jen, is there anything else that you wanted to talk about that we didn't go over?
Speaker 2:No, I think that that is pretty much it. I mean just to recap. The things I really want people to take away from this are that grief is not linear, it does not have an end point necessarily. It does not have a specific set of rules or steps that you're supposed to go through. People deal with grief in many, many different ways. Some do a lot of practical things, some really need to sit with the emotional piece of it and, you know, the best thing that we can do is to one, not make the grieving person responsible for other people's feelings including us, if that's, you know, if we're in their life in that way and to surround them with practical help to the extent that we can, that they don't have to tell us that they need, and to also sometimes just be there to hold the grief with them.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's so amazing. Well, thank you so much. That was really helpful. I'm going to go back and listen to this many times, I'm sure. I just think it's so challenging to help someone through this process without being a burden to the healing process, and the reminder to be able to just sit and hold space is so important, because it feels so much like you're not doing anything when you're doing so much more than you could ever imagine.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. Well, thank you, kelly. I really appreciate you bringing me on to as you again talk about this, because it because it touches all of us in one way or another.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely.
