Birth Shame and Reconnecting with Your Body with Wendy Powell CEO of MUTU System

When Wendy Powell, founder and CEO of Mutu System, first grappled with postpartum challenges, she unknowingly began a journey to revolutionize women's health conversations globally. In our latest episode, Wendy joins us to share her insights on the often-overlooked aspects of perinatal pelvic health and its profound effect on women's lives. Together, we explore the intricacies of dealing with issues like incontinence and prolapse, which extend beyond mere physical discomfort and touch upon deeper aspects like self-esteem and social participation. Wendy's collaboration with health insurers and hygiene companies globally underscores the pressing need for a holistic healthcare approach, particularly in regions like the U.S., where women's health issues are still under-researched.

Imagine feeling shame and defeat when a birth plan doesn't go as anticipated. This episode tackles the emotional complexities of childbirth, especially the concept of birth shame that plagues many women. Medical interventions, though sometimes necessary, can leave mothers feeling disempowered and disconnected. We dive into the lack of postpartum support and address how dismissive attitudes within the medical community can stall recovery. By sharing personal anecdotes and professional insights, we aim to empower women with knowledge and support, helping them regain confidence in their postpartum bodies.

Bringing to light the challenges of pelvic floor health and its accessibility, we discuss the essential yet often inaccessible therapies needed for recovery. Wendy and I emphasize the importance of understanding our bodies as a cohesive unit, advocating for practical and personalized approaches to health. Through heartfelt stories and expert advice, we paint a picture of non-linear recovery journeys, highlighting how both surgical and non-surgical methods can help reclaim strength post-birth. This episode is a call to action for comprehensive care, where women's voices are heard, and their postpartum journey is fully supported.

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Chapters

• 0:00 Global Impact of Women's Health
• 8:17 Postpartum Birth Shame and Empowerment
• 24:23 Pelvic Floor Health and Access Challenges
• 33:56 Journey to Strength and Wellness
• 39:47 Recovery and Empowerment After Birth
• 49:10 Reconnecting With Birth Experience and Control
• 1:04:17 Reclaiming Post-Birth Body Strength

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:29

Hello, Today I have with me Wendy Powell. Wendy is the founder and CEO of Mutu System, the digital health platform clinically recommended globally for perinatal pelvic health. A recognized leader in women's pelvic health, Wendy's work is endorsed by doctors, midwives, specialist women's health PTs and surgeons worldwide. She serves on the Women's Development Board of the charity Microloan and as a consultant to health and hygiene companies and health insurers on women's incontinence and postpartum issues. Wendy, welcome and thank you so much for joining me. Thank you so much for having me. I just think that all the work you do is so exciting, like the Microloan and the women's hygiene companies and health insurers. Is that just in the UK or is that worldwide? No, that's worldwide.

Speaker 2: 1:24

Changes that need to happen, that's worldwide.

Speaker 2: 1:25

Yeah, as to how much influence I can have with regards to the US health insurers, obviously we temper our expectations there.

Speaker 2: 1:29

But, yes, I am asked for input on some elements there around really understanding the effects of pelvic health on the rest of our health, because I think that we tend to think of some of these issues whether it be incontinence or diastasis recti or prolapse or, for example, they're not just physical issues, are they?

Speaker 2: 1:51

They're issues that literally impact our, our intimate lives, our self-confidence, our self-esteem, everything. So there's so much of a knock-on effect in terms of, if we take it from a payer point of view, if you like, from an interview or a health system point of view because I work with the NHS in the UK as well there is a knock-on effect in terms of the costs, both personal and literally financial, of those issues. Yeah, that's the sort of context of the health system consultation and I work with a big European health and hygiene company. Essentially, they are involved. They're in the incontinence business, so making management products for incontinence, but whilst also trying to make sure that they bring in expertise around. Not just managing incontinence, but whilst also trying to make sure that they bring in expertise around not just managing incontinence but actually doing something about it.

Speaker 1: 2:37

So context for those. That's so amazing because I feel like we're just now starting in the US to even recognize it. I know I've interviewed a lot of pelvic floor physical therapists who were physical therapists before. Then they had their kids and then they. Why didn't they say anything about this? And it was just maybe a paragraph in a textbook in school, which I mean to one degree makes sense because you have to generalize everything. But I just feel like in the US our health system is just so specialized that we don't even think about the person as a whole, and it's specialized in the consideration of a 160-pound male and there's not enough.

Speaker 1: 3:23

There aren't studies on women we're starting to. There aren't studies on people who are pregnant, because it's considered unethical. We just don't have the information, and that is hindering the health of women, especially as we medicalize birth. The more you medicalize birth, the less natural the effects are on the body and then we have more pelvic floor health issues. So I'm sure you know all this, but I'm reiterating for our listeners because this is just so important and I probably, like you and I also had no real thoughts about this until it affected me.

Speaker 2: 4:02

It's the way that these issues relate to other issues. I think when I first started doing this, which is 15 plus years ago, and I think when I first went into it, I went into it as a new mom and also as a certified pre and postnatal trainer, personal trainer at the time, and I think in those early months and years, there was this perception that, oh, we're making an exercise program to help with these particular symptoms and issues because currently solutions don't exist. But as it went forward, it became more and more evident from the feedback we were getting from members and users, which was, oh my gosh, I thought I was just buying an exercise program. This has changed my sex life, this has changed my self-esteem, this has changed how I show up at work in my community. So it's understanding how these issues around pelvic health, sexual health, how we feel about our bodies, how well our core and our lower back functions literally this affects everything. It affects how productive we can be at work, how present we can be with everybody in our lives. It really does affect everything. When women are worried that they're going to wet themselves or that they feel in pain, they're not going to drink enough, they're not going to exercise class. They're going to say no to social events at work. There's so many knock-on effects.

Speaker 2: 5:26

I remember being at an event years back and everybody was dancing. It was an evening, it was an after-party thing and everyone's them. I could see this woman sitting in the chair and she was dancing in a chair and I said how are you going to come and dance? And she went I can't. And I had to. I cajoled her a couple of times and she went I can't because I'll wet myself. And it was just that realization that this is affecting women in enjoyment of life quite literally. This woman wanted to get up and dance and she couldn't. And so I think whether it's this lady wasn't a new mom, her children were much older and, of course, these aren't postpartum issues, these are women's issues, these go right to our lifetime and they're affecting everything about the way that we show up in our lives. So it's that knock on effect that we really need to appreciate more and understand better.

Speaker 1: 6:21

Yeah, so it sounds like you weren't always doing this. What brought this about?

Speaker 2: 6:27

So I was. I'm 53 now my kids are 19 and 17. So my babies are all grown up. I made MUTU pretty much around when my daughter was born, so 18, 19 years ago. Prior to that, I was a personal trainer and I had been for some time specializing in pre and postnatal work, and that had come about simply as an interest. I'd started working with some moms and I thought, oh, I like this, but I don't know enough about it. So I started to specialize in that area of certification and study, and prior to all of that I was in advertising and had a different job in publishing in London. So this is my second life.

Speaker 1: 7:05

So you started Mutu because you had noticed the effects of motherhood on the female body in order to mitigate those effects. But you also do a lot of work with a concept that was new to me, but I started Googling because I feel like it conceptualizes a lot of experiences that mothers have in the birth space. So I talk a lot about birth trauma and not everything is a trauma. So I just, on a whim, googled birth shame to try to put some words to what I notice women are feeling and you and all of your work came up. So I'd love to hear, first of all, let's talk about what is birth shame and then how all of this evolved for you, like your birth story and how you became an advocate for women's physical health and the concept of birth shame and helping women through this process where they feel like maybe they did something quote unquote wrong in their birth feel like maybe they did something quote unquote wrong in their birth.

Speaker 2: 8:17

Yeah, so I think birth shame is something that, as you say, as a term, I may not have been aware of until more recently, but it summed up where I think I was after my birth some time back, and I know the way a lot of others feel. So what we mean by it is feeling, as you just said, like you maybe did something wrong, like your body didn't perform, behave, function quite as it's supposed to. We're fed two narratives, aren't we? On the one hand, birth is this, which obviously it is an entirely natural procedure and an entirely natural process, and we're fed this belief in a way that it's supposed to feel very instinctive, very intuitive. It's supposed to happen very naturally, but, on the other hand, that's not actually most of our experience and, depending on where we live, it may be absolutely the opposite of our experience. And so I think, when things don't work out or turn out the way maybe you thought they would, then one many women feel like they somehow failed at that, like they didn't do a good enough job, and also feeling like they should have done something differently, and also feeling like this isn't as instinctive or intuitive, as I thought it was going to be, and then, as we become new moms again, we're supposed to know what our baby wants, we're supposed to know what our body's doing, whereas actually everything, including our new baby, often feels entirely alien. We haven't got any idea what we're supposed to be feeling or doing. So I think that feeling of just feeling totally discombobulated, confused, overwhelmed, and feeling like everybody else has got it nailed and everybody else knows what they're doing and everybody else is just like flowing with it and of course that's not really the case there's also that element of feeling, I think, physically almost broken and I've heard that term a lot from women, especially if they did have a physically traumatic birth in the sense of tears, interventions, other interventions that have meant that their power was taken away from them.

Speaker 2: 10:15

Now, when birth is very medicalized and for example mine I had vaginal births with huge amounts of intervention, massive hemorrhage after both of them, so something that sort of started as natural birth then required a lot of intervention. Now if I hadn't have had that intervention, I wouldn't have survived the first one, second because of massive hemorrhage. So obviously I'm not for a second saying that shouldn't occur. We're incredibly privileged that we have that kind of intervention at our disposal, it literally saves our lives. But what it means is that feeling of this is out of my control. I need other people to take over this for me. I don't really understand what to do. My body doesn't really understand what to do. That continues on post-birth. So it's not as if, once we're sewn up and healed in an acute sense post-birth, we don't suddenly snap into intuitive more. So it's this whole process of it's often not the natural or instinctive thing that we think it's supposed to be, and when we don't feel that, we feel like we screwed it up and that we didn't do as good a job as we should have done. So I think that's where it comes from.

Speaker 2: 11:23

And for me personally, what happened with me? As I said, I had massive hemorrhages after both of mine and required a lot of care afterwards, and at that time I was a personal trainer qualified in pre and postnatal work. So if anybody was supposed to know how to prepare their body and get through this and snap back and all those wonderful terms straight afterwards, I had, in theory, those tools and that knowledge and that education at my disposal. But I didn't feel any of those things.

Speaker 2: 11:54

Not only did I feel those emotions I just described of feeling like I hadn't done a very good job at this, like I'd failed at it, but on top of that kind of feeling quite bitter almost that it was like hang on, I did everything right, like I did all the exercises, and so this whole feeling of what the heck just happened to me, what the heck with this body?

Speaker 2: 12:19

I don't recognize, it, doesn't feel like it used to, it doesn't respond like it used to, and I know that that's common to most of us post-birth. So I think that the shame term that you started that question with, I think it feeds into all of those things your body doesn't respond to. For example, the exercise, the workout that you used to do, it doesn't do the same thing, it doesn't feel the same or look the same with intimacy, with lifting things. So, whether it's like whoa, I just wet myself or wow, that hurt, or that didn't feel like it was supposed to, all of these things just contribute to this process of feeling, I think, very out of control, very disempowered. So I think it all feeds into all of that stuff.

Speaker 1: 14:19

Well, in addition, I feel like you're talking about what's happening to me and this should be natural. I feel like the medical community has this narrative where it's see, I told you, See, I knew you wouldn't be able to do it without us, and that's just so gross. And it's also the afterwards, the gaslighting, where it's oh, that's normal, Welcome to motherhood. Yes, and it needs to be addressed. It can be normalized so that you don't feel alone, but dismissing it leads to shame and doesn't lead to going through the steps that need to happen to fix the process.

Speaker 1: 15:01

And I've heard I'm not there in other countries that's part of the process of giving birth, namely France, from what I've been told, they require pelvic floor interventions and I know Denmark requires mental health follow-ups just from the mothers that I've talked to that are from there. So there's just so much that we're lacking and, as a result, I guess we don't have the processes in place to be able to help moms the way that we need to, or the processes aren't in place because we dismiss them. I'm not sure it's like a chicken or the egg situation. It's an entire culture. It's like the patriarchy. The medical patriarchy doesn't address these issues.

Speaker 2: 15:48

I'll respond with regards to you said about normalizing and how. I think that the conversation around a lot of these issues, especially incontinence for example, bladder leaks there is this narrative that it's normal. There is this narrative that this is what happens when you've had a baby. Like you said, welcome to motherhood. Doctors will say this to moms, let alone friends, moms, sisters, etc. So, on the one hand, we're not prepared, and so probably the phrase we hear the most often at Mutu is why did nobody tell me? Why did nobody tell me it was going to feel like this? You have all this preparation in one sense, but none at all in another In terms of how our postpartum body will feel and function. We are utterly unprepared, and so that feeling of why did nobody tell me? I didn't know this was going to happen, then, coupled with it's normal, that's what happens to moms. Welcome to motherhood, that's the deal.

Speaker 2: 16:43

And I think that in recent years there has been an increase in conversation around peeing, when you sneeze or laugh, that kind of thing, that sort of stress, incontinence. There's a bit more narrative about it and that has positives in the sense of validating women's experiences, making them know that they're not alone, making them know that it's okay and that it's very common, but there's a difference between common and normal, and there's a difference between what's common and what we should therefore just put up with. So for me, the conversation stops way too early. It's great that there is more conversation about these issues for moms, but what is very much missing in many of these conversations is and there is something you can do about it. So we often talk about postpartum bladder leaks, and when I say postpartum, I don't mean first year after baby loss. Your kids can be teenagers, you can be a grandma because these issues don't go away if we don't do something about them. And, of course, as we go into perimenopause and beyond, they can get worse too. So this is for women at all stages of their lives, of motherhood, of their journey. But there is something that can be done about it. And that feeling that it's normal, everybody's got it. We really need to take that a step further and say yes, and there's something that we can do.

Speaker 2: 18:08

Something that we hear at Mutu very often is I'm too late. I'm too late to do anything about it. My kids aren't babies anymore. We hear that a lot. So, first of all, to reassure, it is never too late, you can always do something about it, and so it's understanding, really, that these issues can be dealt with, that that the lot of motherhood is not to feel crappy about your body. That's not it, that's not what we have to just accept, put up with and move forward with, and that there are strategies and techniques that we can use. And it does, of course, start with that conversation and with that education, because if we're not talking about it, then we're not even asking the question.

Speaker 2: 18:47

One of the things I know from a lot of the work we do with doctors, with clinicians One of the things I know from a lot of the work we do with doctors, with clinicians, with medical assistants is the shocking, really, or appalling, length of time it takes before most women will present to a medical professional with a problem such as this, and many never do. The average is seven years. Our data tells us that women will deal with prolapse symptoms, with incontinence symptoms, with all sorts of other pelvic health issues, for on average seven years before they'll even see a doctor, and very often there is still that belief. I've left it too late anyway, I'm too old. So, yeah, there's a lot of work to be done at every stage of that conversation, but it definitely needs to go beyond just validating our feelings and letting us know we're not alone and moving into actual solutions.

Speaker 1: 19:36

Yeah, I agree. And then the solutions if we are given. The solutions I feel are not necessarily the conventional solutions that we're given are not necessarily helpful. I was told there's the Kegels, which Kegels by themselves aren't necessarily the solution. I was also told there was this biofeedback that was happening, or also just laser, and that's not addressing the entire problem, because the problem is not just one isolated area, it's the entire system as a whole that is now weakened and stretched and bones are moved around. So having to get everything back together, ideally non-surgically I don't know that. A lot of medical providers have that information. They're given what they're presented, which I think people come in from companies that have a device and they sell them the device and it seems like a solution and a quick fix, but it's not addressing the entire problem.

Speaker 2: 20:35

Yep, that's so true. So what we look at is to come to the key goal point first, which is most people's understanding of what pelvic floor exercises are, what they mean. If you ask most women about pelvic floor exercises, they may use the word Kegels. They know they're supposed to do them. Whether or not they know how to do them or what it feels like when they get them right or what it feels like when they get them wrong, that's the crux of it, isn't it? So what we do at Mooji System is very much start with this foundation of breathing techniques and strategies to actually understand what is this supposed to feel like.

Speaker 2: 21:14

We hear terms like do your Kegels or engage your core utterly meaningless to most people. What the heck is that? What does that feel like when I do it? I think you know. I know that there are millions of women spending their time, money and resources lying on a mat in Pilates clothes thinking that you know, am I doing it? I don't know. Is she doing it? I don't know it's, unless we cue breath by breath to really understand what that's supposed to feel, and not just in an instructional way, but in a. This is what it will feel like when you get it right. If you're feeling it here, okay, stop regather, do it again. So, for example, you'll know this, of course, but for example, a lot of women are squeezing the big muscles of their glutes, of their backside, they're squeezing their inner thighs, they're holding their breath, they're sucking in hard, they're doing all of these different things that we think is engaging our core or doing our Kegels. So we very much start with that foundation of what does it feel like to first of all just reconnect with those bits of our body.

Speaker 2: 22:15

Because, coming back to the birth process, whether that was recent or much longer in the past, there is this disconnection I think is absolutely key, certainly key in what we do that it is very hard to connect, to let alone engage or strengthen a muscle or group of muscles that you quite literally stop talking to. If you come out of the birth process, as I say and this could have been a long time ago but if you're left with a feeling where you don't like your body very much, you don't like the way it looks, you don't like the way it feels. Maybe you don't look at yourself naked, maybe you don't touch your body, maybe you don't like to look at your body. Maybe you don't eat in a way that nurtures your body, maybe you eat in a way that punishes in some way. All of these factors feed into a disconnection where our body's, from tummy down, this does not look like it used to, it doesn't feel or behave or respond the way it used to.

Speaker 2: 23:14

I don't know it, I don't know what to do with it, and so there's this cutoff, there's this disconnect, which I think is I compare it to say we're going for a pelvic examination, a pap smear, for example, and for those few moments we go to our happy place, right, this isn't much fun. I, those few moments we go to our happy place, right, this isn't much fun. I don't particularly want to be here. It's got to be done.

Speaker 2: 23:41

So we check out, but the problem is when that checkout is going on for weeks and months and years, and so what we start with is that reconnection, to simply sit and go through these breathing exercises that we kind of cue, literally breath by breath, to tune in to. Okay, what even is my core, what around your abdominal muscles, your deep abdominal muscles, your pelvic floor muscles, what even is that pelvic floor thing? What does it feel like? So we start there on the basis that I strongly believe in sort of 15 plus year, 20 plus in personal training, that we can engage our core and plank and crunch till the end of the day. If we're not connected to those muscles it's just not happening. So we start there.

Speaker 1: 24:24

Yeah, I agree for moms and future moms, because as a nurse I learned about those muscles and I danced my whole life and I did yoga and I did Pilates while I was pregnant all of those things and they tried to teach me what those muscles were and how to engage them, especially during pregnancy. And I felt such a disconnect from the time that I started pushing to, I believe, when I finally I started pelvic floor physical therapy again when my son was four, because I did it when he was born and that just wasn't the right time. So I want to validate that too. If you can't do it right after birth, yeah. Just don't Absolutely Start slow if you need to.

Speaker 1: 25:10

But I just remember, like being at work and where I'm a nurse so where you hold your pee a long time, yes. So where you hold your pee a long time, yes. And just being like God I just sneezed or I just laughed or I just moved to bed and I leaked a little. That's so annoying. Like where are those muscles, trying to connect with them? And every once in a while, like I would get it.

Speaker 1: 25:34

But even if you know when you're getting it, you don't know if you're getting it completely right or you can't sustain it, and so it just it really does take time to get to know your body again, and I think that is a huge part of why we A we don't know that we have to do this and, b when we start we feel like such a failure, because it's this is so hard and I'm just doing this one small movement with a breath and I still don't know if I'm doing it right.

Speaker 1: 26:02

And it can be long and tedious to try to reconnect with that part of your body to the extent that you feel like it's impossible, yes, and so you really need guidance and we need it to be accessible Because, to be perfectly honest, pelvic floor physical therapy, at least in the States, is very expensive If your insurance doesn't pay for it. And even if your insurance pays for it, they may not pay for a specific person that has time, that has appointments and that has been doing it for a long time. And then the people that you do connect with, that have been doing it for a long time, that are very skilled, have gotten sick of the insurance system here and are doing it outside of the insurance, and then it just turns into this whole process where it's just inaccessible.

Speaker 2: 26:48

The system here in the UK might be different. The difficulty and lack of resource is the same. So in the sense that I do a lot of work with GPs, with general practitioners, and they are so happy when they find out about something like Mood2, like a digital solution, like she can follow these exercises at home, kind of thing I've heard so often from doctors oh my goodness, that's great, we just send them for surgery. I didn't know where else to send them. They don't even know that pelvic floor physiotherapy, physical therapy, even exists. And that's not all, but it is definitely a proportion. And then when you do have those that know of it, again long waiting lists or expensive to go to do it privately, whatever. So it's there, just isn't the resource to do that. And I think and we do a lot of work with pelvic health, physical therapists all around the world and it's that perfect sort of compliment in the sense that if you are seeing a physio which is great and if you are seeing a physio that specializes in pelvic health again, even that varies. They call them women's health, physical therapists or pelvic health. Some do internal work, some don't. Biofeedback some will do that, some won't. So you're not really even guaranteed that you're going to be getting the same sort of diagnoses or tests either. And when you do like you say, it's hard to get that appointment, it can be expensive to get that consultation and when you do, it's one session or a handful of sessions.

Speaker 2: 28:18

These are techniques for life. These are techniques for we are lifting our kids and doing life every day. We need our floor, we need our pelvic floor and an instruction we were given in clinic once or twice. It's often just not adequate. We really need that ongoing nudge, that ongoing reminder, that ongoing sort of cue and somewhere to revisit, to like how do I do this again? What's it supposed to feel like? Because it become unnatural.

Speaker 2: 28:47

I think a lot of people start with something like our program and they're like heck, apparently I can't even breathe sort of just understanding because then, if you've got a background in yoga or in dance, like you said, or whatever your background, there may be postural habits, for example, somebody that's done ballet training or military training. There's so many different things that affect our postural alignment and all of these things that affect the way that our core and pelvic floor works. All of these things are as you said. They are all related, they all work together. So we really need that check-in and that understanding of how our whole body works, and there are, so a solution that one might buy privately, such as a device, obviously have their place.

Speaker 2: 31:45

Far be it from me to criticize anybody or anything that is genuinely helping women with these situations, but what we come across too is that, for example, an internal device is simply not appropriate or desired by many people. There are multiple reasons sexual trauma, religious reasons, cultural reasons and sheer expense. There are many reasons why an app-based internal device is not going to cut it, so based internal devices is not going to cut it. So yeah that we we need the conversation. We need it to be a fully rounded one, so that it's not just about an isolated muscle or set of muscles and that it's about literally the way we live and lift and work and walk every day.

Speaker 1: 32:27

Yeah, I I really love that, as a personal trainer, you're addressing this. Yeah, I really love that, as a personal trainer, you're addressing this, what we normally. I don't know that even it was ever given to me as an option to have a personal trainer help me with this. I have since hired personal trainers who have helped me with this. It's like that wasn't the point. But they're like oh, you have this issue. Oh, look at your posture. Oh, look at all these things. Oh, you're having pain here.

Speaker 1: 32:58

We need to work on your pelvic health. So just getting the knowledge out there, first of all, that an exercise therapist that has this knowledge could help you with this is first, and the consideration that maybe that might be the first place to start, and then, if that's not helping, you might need more interventions. It's like where are we attacking the problem from? The least invasive might be and I'm just throwing this out there, I'm not trying to tell people how to diagnose and treat their condition you may want to try a exercise program geared towards pelvic health before you jump into surgery. So it's like we have it flipped. We might want to try the least invasive option before we start getting, because the surgery comes with a lot of potential side effects that could make the problem worse if you haven't tried those other options and also you're not addressing the full problem. Like you may get a bladder sling, but how's your core? Yeah?

Speaker 2: 33:55

exactly Exactly. And I think too, it's really important too to not see that journey as a necessarily linear one, in the sense that, for example, I remember a client coming to me years back. We were talking, and she said, oh, I feel like a fraud, I feel like I've cheated. I said what do you mean? And she said, oh, I'm ashamed. She was embarrassed that she'd had a mommy makeover, that she'd had some work done, and I was like that's crazy.

Speaker 2: 34:19

And whether that be for aesthetic reasons and or for functional ones, zero judgment on that from this end, but these things can complement each other. So we do a lot of work as well with hey, it might be that you need surgery, that you need some surgical intervention for your prolapse, for your incontinence, for your hernia, whatever it might be. If you do the work, as it were, if you do that non-interventionist work to prepare for that, then you have a better chance of a successful surgery and not needing it done again. The way I understand it is that I'm told by clinicians we work with that sort of pressure related surgeries, ie such as umbilical hernias, such as some prolapse surgeries, are the most redone surgeries, and that's because we haven't addressed the problem, we've just you know that's coming back to the alignment of posture issues we were talking about Unless we're addressing that whole situation that caused that hernia diastasis, recti, prolapse, bladder leak, whatever it was, in the first place and often those things are, of course, related If we're not addressing the cause of those things, then surgery is less likely to be as satisfactory in terms of its outcomes too.

Speaker 2: 35:33

So, doing the practicing those strategies, those breathing strategies, understanding the way your core and your pelvic floor works, leading up to a surgery that may or may not need to be done and these things are all related. So I think there tends to be a paradigm in the world of exercise and recovery where it's exercise or surgery, as if surgery is like the cop-out that's the easy way and, of course, as we all know, any surgical intervention is never the easy way. It's never going to be. There's always going to involve huge amounts of recovery and care and related issues that may be ongoing. So understanding our own core and pelvic floor health, regardless of what other interventions or treatments or practices we might want to try out, is always going to be a good thing.

Speaker 1: 36:20

I love that you talked about not making it linear, because I think that's a huge part of the problem with the medical culture that we are thinking so linearly instead of. This is a journey Like this is a journey. You have all of these options and we're going to piece them together with what fits you at this particular moment, and so reframing that, I think, is so important. And I find the same challenge when I'm trying to explain to people how I can help them prepare for birth, because they want the birth class and they want me to tell them what to do and they want me to give them the tools, and I'm like it's not really that simple. You may not need that. You may have the knowledge. You may just need some tweaking in one area, but it may be your mindset that is preventing you from having the birth that you're desiring.

Speaker 1: 37:08

I think reframing to make our journeys non-linear, potentially circular, or maybe it's just like a big old slap.

Speaker 2: 37:15

Maybe it doesn't have a shape. Things are required and more effective at different times too. More possible, whether it be if we're a new mom with a small baby or more than one, then obviously our bandwidth, our resources, our energy, everything is at a very different place to where it might be a few years down the line. So, yeah, I think there is never one answer that will fit all. I think it's a case of anything that we do to aid that recovery, to aid ourselves, to feel stronger. What's interesting? Stronger is the word we hear the most.

Speaker 2: 38:02

I asked thousands of our members more than hundreds of thousands of people have been through the Me Too program and we did a poll some time back and we asked the question. You can cut this out if you want to, but it may or may not be interesting. We ran this question, which was fill in the blanks I want to go from blank to blank, so that blank and left that open. I want to go from what to what, so that what. And we had thousands of responses to this questionnaire.

Speaker 2: 38:34

This was one of the long form questions and the words that came up by far the most often were from weak to strong, which I thought was really interesting and obviously everybody had different concepts or definitions of what strong meant. To some women that meant crossfit and lifting weights, but for many of them probably many more of them it didn't mean that. It didn't mean strong in a buff, muscly way. It meant strong in that I can just do what I need to be able to do. I can lift my kids, I can go about my life, I can carry stuff, I can move a wardrobe if I need to, I can kick the door shut whilst holding a baby carrier and unlocking the door. In the other hand, they wanted. They felt weak and they wanted to feel strong.

Speaker 2: 39:25

And then the so that's part of the question that varied massively. Like I say, it might've been because I want to be lifting weights, I want to do CrossFit, I want to run a marathon, but actually, just as more often, it was so that I can feel good, being intimate with my partner, so that I can play with my kids, so that I can walk with my friends, so that I can dance when I want to. So the concepts of it were very different, but that feeling of weakness, which I think is such a sad state that women who have just done what is, in my view, inarguably one of the most powerful, amazing, strong things ever. What they feel is weak. They feel weak. They feel like they messed up, like they failed, felt like they didn't do it very well and now my body isn't what it's supposed to be. So, when you're supposed to be feeling as feminine, as empowered, as strong, as really maybe we are in our lives, sometimes we literally feel the opposite. Yeah, very sad.

Speaker 1: 40:26

Yeah, I agree, and I feel like you just segue perfectly into birth shame. It all goes together. We feel we did this process that is supposed to be so empowering, and maybe you felt strong doing it at least going into it you thought you were going to and then you come out of it just feeling like you're torn apart and you're not sure how to pick up the pieces. And so you talked about your birth experiences and how, even though you went in feeling strong, afterwards, it just wasn't what you thought it was going to be. Do you want to share your experiences? Not all of them are going to come from a place where they felt strong, where they knew how to physically keep their bodies fit. I think it's so important that somebody that actually knows how to do that goes through the process and then realizes that everything is just completely adrift and you need to put your life back together. And then how you did that and how that became, how you're helping other women.

Speaker 2: 41:20

For sure, almost to start at the end of that, and I'm happy to share the experience. But to start at the end of that almost what was interesting was when I had my babies. I was a highly certified personal trainer specializing in pre and postnatal work exercise workouts. But I wasn't prepared, and it's actually as a result of that that I made me to, because what I had at my disposal the tools, the strategies, literally what I'd been taught to teach as a certified trainer wasn't enough, and so it was finally, I guess, understanding for myself that those issues whether it be pelvic floor diastasis, back pain, just feeling like that didn't go as planned and I don't know what to do about it. Realizing that with all the education and certifications that I had in that specific area, I wasn't prepared and so it was really that sort of led me to somebody must know. Because at that time the world of exercise has gotten a lot more educated on these things in the last 18 years. Thankfully it's certainly a lot better than it was. But at that time I remember thinking exercise doesn't know, because I've taken all the exams and they don't know. So I was like who who does? So I started, I studied in biomechanics, I worked with midwives, I worked with physical therapists, I worked with sex therapists, I worked with doctors and it was working to try and find. Somebody must know these answers, because the women that I've been working with for years, and now me, my, me myself are feeling these things and the things that I've been working with for years and now me myself are feeling these things and the things that I've been taught to teach are not adequate. They're not good enough, they don't work.

Speaker 2: 42:57

So it was that that it came from, and the experience that I had was that I was a jobbing personal trainer right through my pregnancy, so I was boxing, running, I had fit, healthy pregnancies and was very comfortable throughout those. And then what happened during my birth was basically just very prolonged labor, which then resulted in intervention in the form of ventouse and vaginal extraction and cutting, and then a long recovery and massive postpartum hemorrhage in between, and I had my son was less than 20 months post my daughters, and literally the same thing happened again, having been assured there's no way that's going to happen again because you're so fit and you're so strong and you're so you know, and of course it did so it was. I think there was definitely a process of. It was very humbling experience in that sense because I was fit, healthy, strong, knew what I was supposed to do. That wasn't good enough. Mother Nature had other plans that day and the other day, so I think there was definitely a humbling element to it, which is we can plan and write these plans as much as we want, but you were saying about when you're preparing women for birth. It's I don't know how it's going to go. You know it's like some stuff could happen and we will deal with that. That's why, thankfully, we have professional medics such as yourself. Stuff is going to happen and you won't be able to control it all, and I think it's understanding that.

Speaker 2: 44:31

And then, as we talked about getting into that place afterwards where we can provide women with the guidance and the knowledge and the care and the nurturing and the support that they need, but whilst also handing back that power, if you like, because their bodies are theirs to fix. And there's so much misinformation, there's so much, there's too much information. It's overwhelming. And despite the vast amount of information that we, of course, now have at our disposal about diastasis recti, that's a classic, my goodness, I don't even know how many articles and things are written about that and what you can and can't do and shouldn't do. The more information there is, the more confused women are, and so I think to try to provide which is what we're doing at Muti System and many other great providers are too which is to try to provide that sane, trusted place and to empower her to start to trust herself again, to trust her body. Something I hear so often is when can I? And the blank might be run, lift row, dance, dumbbell, whatever. When can I?

Speaker 2: 45:38

And instead of giving a sort of prognosis for each individual activity or sports or whatever it might be, what we try to do is okay, I'm going to teach you instead to know the answer to that, so you will know when your body is ready or not ready and when your body is not ready. Let's say, for example, you want to go back to running, or you want to start running and you run for a bit and you get some leaks. That doesn't mean your body can never run. It doesn't mean you can't do that. It doesn't mean that's out. What it means is and so we teach in terms of what I call just layering. When personal trainers put together a program for you. That's what they're doing. They're progressing things by adding layers and they're modifying things by taking away layers.

Speaker 2: 46:23

So if you're just as a I'll just give this tip, because running is one that comes up a lot but if you ran for a bit and then you leaked, okay, think about the terrain that you're running on, think about the speed, think about the impact, think about the shoes you're wearing, think how far you ran, how long you went, modify something, modify something back until you find that point at which, okay, I can do that much, I can go that. First, that intensity apply to any workout. I can go to that intensity or that impact and I'm okay. Okay, that's your new line in the sand and that might've moderated from where it used to be, but let's moderate our line in the sand and let's work for that. And then we go a little bit above that.

Speaker 2: 47:06

Many women I know feel I can never run, I can never do it. I can't do these things because my body won't let me. So, rewind, modify, and anybody listening to this that is feeling disillusioned or demotivated or frustrated because you can't get back to or progress to what you want to physically. It's just different steps, different lines in the sand.

Speaker 1: 47:32

Yeah, we would do the same thing if we were trying to lift weights and we added five extra pounds and then the weight fell on us. We'd be like that was too much.

Speaker 2: 47:39

Same concept and say I can do this Exactly.

Speaker 1: 47:42

I don't belong here. I give up.

Speaker 2: 47:45

Tempting where I might be, yeah, right.

Speaker 1: 47:47

Yeah. So let's go back to what that experience was like for you. So you went into it thinking I got this, I know what I'm doing. Were you thinking it was going to be easy breezy? Or were you just thinking that you, what was that like for you?

Speaker 2: 48:01

I probably thought it was going to be easy, breezy, I probably thought I'm trying to think. I think there is a there's a view that if you prepare for something, if you're fit and strong, if you do everything right whether it be the nutrition, exercises or all of those elements that do contribute to healthy and successful birthing processes Sure, they help and they contribute, but, like we've said, there's plenty that's out of our control. So I think the shock coming back to the word trauma, there was trauma involved in mind because the intervention was so it felt at the time. It felt brutal, it felt sudden, it felt shocking, it felt I, it felt sudden, it felt shocking, it felt I didn't know this was going to happen or need to happen. So I think that total lack of control, that lack of literally feeling like we are handing ourselves over, handing our bodies over, if you like, to the emergency care that they need, and so when you do that comes back to that disconnection that we talked about care that they need, and so when you do that comes back to that disconnection that we talked about.

Speaker 2: 49:02

I think it's very in my experience and the many women that we work with, we don't just get that back, we don't just reconnect and go. Okay, I'm in charge again now. So I think, when so much of you talked earlier about things being medicalized and, as we've said, obviously when they need to be medicalized, thank goodness they are medicalized. But when things are taken out of our control and into others' hands, we disconnect. Okay, you deal with it, you make it work, you make me better, you help me live, you save my baby, Whatever the situation might be, we hand that over and I think it's that reclaiming that is the hard part and the part that we're not really taught to do. We're not given the tools for that, we're just told okay, if you go home with your baby, you're good.

Speaker 1: 49:52

Yeah, exactly, you're lucky. Yes, that's something that we're lucky to do. Everything's good, yeah, everything's fine, as long as the baby's healthy. Be grateful. I think a lot of times what I try to teach moms is to still feel a part of that process, of what is happening. What is like making the medical decision Did you feel that those decisions were being made for you, or did you feel like you're still a part of that process?

Speaker 2: 50:17

I didn't feel part of the process at all. No, I'm not saying that they shouldn't have happened.

Speaker 1: 50:22

Oh, I agree, but there is not that it's nuanced and I think that providers, yes, we have to get in there and we have to do those interventions. But there's also a point where it's we still need to connect with that human being and like, how do we recuperate that? Or how do we do it in the process? Where in the process did you start feeling that disconnect? Do you remember?

Speaker 2: 50:46

So I think some things that stick in. They're sort of snap moments, because my second birth actually involved a paramedic helicopter and I wasn't present for much of it. So it's snapshots rather than remembering the whole process, if you like. But there's a couple of things that stick in my mind, and one is actually from my first birth, and that was I don't even know what the procedure was that was happening, but what I remember was being on my back on the bed and this doctor came in. A male doctor came in and I don't remember why he was there or any of that. As I say, it's a little fuzzy. I don't remember why he was there or any of that. As I say, it's a little fuzzy, but I do remember that he didn't look at me or engage with me in any way and he started to do some kind of examination, which was not comfortable, and I think I had some kind of panic attack that. I'm not quite sure what happened, but it was something like that and there was a nurse next to me, there was another medic next to me, but the snapshot I remember is this doctor. He literally stood back and went like this, and he just went fine, you're going to theater then and walked out the door and so, yeah, a very unpleasant moment, a horrible sort of memory, and it was just one thing that contributed to this. This is nothing to do with me anymore. Obviously, most people don't have that bedside. That was unfortunate and there could be a million reasons why he was in such a foul mood that day, but I remember it and it was 18 years ago. So there was definitely that kind of total disconnect and I think, to relay it you asked when I felt the disconnect I think it almost came from some experiences like that where he was clearly so disconnected he was looking at a vagina, he was not looking at a person, he literally I don't think he even looked at my face. So there was a couple of quite unpleasant experiences like that.

Speaker 2: 54:47

With my second birth, I was helicoptered, I was unconscious for some of it. That was even more acute, the hemorrhage. So that's a lot more vague. I don't really know what they did, but I think that in all of that there's this coming round and we're all supposed to just move on because baby's fine, you're here. Well, that was close and we all move on. Yeah, I mean, I did actually have, I remember, with my son, my second birth, and I can remember a nurse coming into the room at some point and she said oh, I just wanted to check on you before I finished my shift and I didn't remember her or anything.

Speaker 2: 55:25

And she said yeah, she said I was there when they brought you in. We thought we'd lost you there and I just thought I don't. Even so, there's a lot about my personal birth experiences that I literally don't remember, that I literally wasn't present or conscious. For we remember the good and the bad, don't we? I remember her. I remember other. I remember another nurse that sat down next to me as I came round after something and she said do you know what happened? And I said no, and she sat down and she started explaining stuff to me, and she didn't have to do that. So you remember, we remember the good ones, but sadly, we also remember those sort of snippets of bad experiences too.

Speaker 1: 56:03

Yeah, that's unfortunate and I always try to take stories like these and listen to the things that we could do better, and it is so you get into like these robotic actions because you're going from room to room taking care of putting out fires, essentially Taking care of this person. I feel like and hopefully we're talking to the patient- right.

Speaker 1: 56:22

But I feel like it is very easy, once you've done all the things cleaned up the room, gotten everybody situated to forget to say do you know what happened? And that is so important because, especially if you're not conscious for it my gosh, those are answers that you need, even if you're going to go on and get therapy for it. Putting together that puzzle is a huge part of the process of getting better and it's not a puzzle that is necessarily reflected in the chart. I remember getting my chart from my first birth and I was a nurse in obstetrics for my first birth and I still didn't know what happened to me. And it had a few answers. I was able to make peace with it.

Speaker 1: 57:02

But there's still stuff that I don't know and I was ashamed to ask because stuff happened to me that I found out about later. So my doctor gave me an episiotomy and didn't tell me. So it was like that's interesting. It's so awkward to confront somebody after that's happened. I never got to see that doctor again. So just remembering to humanize and talk to the human and then debrief is so important to talk about what happened and why we couldn't talk to you in that moment if that was what was going on all of that stuff?

Speaker 1: 57:33

A question that I like to ask every single mom that comes on this podcast to be able to go back and reflect and maybe even provide some healing. If you could go back and talk to yourself at any point in this process, and at any point in your birth process or even before, where would you want to go and what would you want to say? And if there's multiple points where you would like to get in your time machine and go back and communicate with yourself, you can do that too.

Speaker 2: 58:00

Gosh. I think see, from what I know of what happened, what went wrong during the births that I had? As far as I'm aware, I don't think they could have been prevented. So I don't think they could have been prevented. So I don't think there's anything different I could have asked for or done or should have done.

Speaker 2: 58:17

So I think if I could go back to talk to myself at that time, it would be that reassurance of you haven't done anything wrong and that there's going to be medics that rush in and out and haven't got time. They've got a job to do, they've got a priority list and small talk is not the top of the priority list. I get that. I think we all understand that. So I think it would be about a reassurance and a nurturing, if you like, handhold almost to say it's okay, just let them do what they need to do. They're going to do what they need to do.

Speaker 2: 58:56

This bit is out of your hands and that's okay. And it's not because you did anything wrong. And if they're rushed, that's because they're really good at their job and they're getting on with it and making sure you're okay. So I think it would be. I think it would be a reassurance. I think it would be a it's okay, and also what we talked about before of for now they're in control, but the baby's yours, the body's yours, you'll get it all back. So I think it'll be something along those lines.

Speaker 1: 59:27

Yeah, I think that's really important. You'll get it all back and then stepping into that.

Speaker 2: 59:32

So the moment we hand over, and that's okay, that's really is okay, and you make the choice to hand over, you relinquish that and then you decide when to take that back.

Speaker 1: 59:43

Yeah, yeah, yeah, remembering that you have that control. Yeah, I think a lot of moms forget that they can get their power back.

Speaker 2: 59:49

Yeah, I don't think we're told that, and I think there's so much of it that we don't understand or remember or whatever. And then, of course, we go into those, certainly as first-time moms, you know, and we don't know how to do anything, do we? I mean, you don't know how to change a diaper, you don't know how to breastfeed, it's all new, it's all, and we're supposed to just know. And so maybe we need to distinguish more between the things that we can learn and the things that we just really should. Just let them roll with it, let them sort it out, and then we'll take a bad control after that.

Speaker 1: 1:00:19

And there's a lot of stuff that like. If you think about giving birth since the beginning of time, I guarantee you there's a lot of learning and you know where it started was watching your mom maybe not your mom give birth to you, but like to your siblings, or your aunt give birth to your cousins, and then breastfeeding and taking care of the baby. That's where it happened and that is just something that in our society lately, with daycares and near knees and all of those things, we're not watching people do that.

Speaker 1: 1:00:45

So that's why we don't know. It has nothing to do with instinct. There's a lot of learned behaviors that are not being passed down nowadays and it's important to give yourself that grace and realize that is a skill set that you may need to go out and learn and not have shame about. Well, Wendy, I have really enjoyed speaking with you. This has been very enlightening. Is there anything that we didn't cover that you wanted to talk about before we go?

Speaker 2: 1:01:12

I don't think so. Is there anything? Do you want me to explain what Mutu is?

Speaker 1: 1:01:16

Yes, that was going to be my next question. Yeah, and how do we? How do we connect with you so that we can take advantage of all of the assets that you have available to help moms get their bodies back?

Speaker 2: 1:01:27

Absolutely so you can find Mutu at mutusystemcom and on all the social platforms. Let me explain what Mutu is. It's a digital program of exercises and strategies that you can start whenever you like, whether it be in the first week after you've given birth or many years later, it doesn't matter. It's not a hard exercise program. Don't worry if you're worried that you won't be able to do it. This is about the foundations that you can build on to do anything else you want to do.

Speaker 2: 1:01:56

So whether you are an absolute non-exerciser or whether you're a marathon runner or a crossfitter, motu is appropriate for you to build those foundations that you can build on. So it's really easy to follow. You do it on your phone, on your cell phone, on your iPad, on your whatever device you want to smart TV, whatever and you just follow really beautiful videos showing you some basic exercises that progress over a period of a few progressions and modules teaching you how to find, connect with and then strengthen your pelvic floor and your core. So you can go from there to do whatever it is that you want to do. So we are all about reconnecting you, strengthening you so that you can go forward with your life and whatever activity you choose. So you find us at MoodySystemcom. There's a 10-day free trial, so it's super easy to jump in and see if it's for you. 10-day free trial, sign up for that If you like that. After that it's a monthly or an annual membership.

Speaker 1: 1:02:59

That's amazing. Is this something that moms can do before they deliver, or even just in preparation for pregnancy?

Speaker 2: 1:03:06

Yeah, In fact, that's a great idea. Something that we touched on earlier is how hard it is to know if you're doing, for example, pelvic floor exercises correctly post-birth. Now, if the first time you try to find your pelvic floor is when you've just pushed a baby out of it, that's probably not the easiest time to find your pelvic floor. Please, if this is reach and use before birth, then yes, it's absolutely appropriate. So we have modifications in the program for pregnancy and for later pregnancy as well. So positional changes, that kind of thing. But the program is absolutely suitable and safe for all stages of pregnancy postpartum, beyond or before?

Speaker 1: 1:03:44

Yeah, I was going to say or before, ideally. Yeah, I have a lot of people that, so I see moms before they deliver as well, like during their pregnancy. And they asked me if it's appropriate to start doing pelvic floor training and I'm like yes, you could have been doing it since the time you were born. That would have been great I might have my daughter sign up for you.

Speaker 2: 1:04:07

Girls should be taught it at school. So often, yeah, so often we're not. So many women are not trying to find their pelvic floor until after they've given birth. So, yeah, it's. And I also encourage it from the point of view of if you are able to do these sort of strategies, techniques just understand what it feels like. What it what it feels like when you find it, connect with it, use it. It means that post-birth you're not going to feel things quite so easily at first. So if you have a vaginal birth certainly if there's intervention along with that you're not going to feel the muscles of your pelvic floor so well. Similarly, if you have a C-section, you're not going to feel the muscles of your lower abs so well. But if you've done these strategies beforehand, there's a kind of a muscle memory and a reassurance that it's okay. I know I'm doing it right, even though I can't feel that there. Realize it. It was just not something that I had consciously done.

Speaker 1: 1:05:12

I actually had a surgery before I had my kids. That's when I noticed that there's a disconnect there and I was just like, oh well, I guess that's gone. Being able to get back to that is important way before birth because, like you said, things are just not going to feel the same. I just remember trying to lift my legs and engage my core and at some point they just dropped because my brain was not connected with it and to normalize that and to make moms understand that may be your current situation, but that's not your new normal. You can get it back. It'll take work, but you can tap into the resources that you need to get that back.

Speaker 1: 1:05:46

So true, Well, wendy, thank you so much. This has been such a pleasure. I'm so glad that I was able to find you and that you agreed to do this. Your information that you've given moms is just important and priceless, and it's what we need to be sharing with every single person that wants to have a baby in the future, because we need to get our bodies back For sure. Thank you, thank you. I'm glad you told me to.