The Healing Power of Touch: Motherhood, Advocacy & Infant Massage with Khyati Desai-Seltzer

What if the journey from womanhood to motherhood offered more transformation than you ever imagined? Join us in a heartwarming episode with Khyati Desai-Seltzer, a mompreneur with a passion for social impact, as she recounts how her own birth stories, including an unexpected cesarean delivery, propelled her into a world of empowerment and community support for new parents. Dive into Khyati's personal experiences with the invaluable support of a doula, as she shares the challenges and triumphs of the fourth trimester. Her transformative path reshaped not only her personal life but also her professional endeavors, spotlighting the importance of advocacy and nurturing environments for mothers.

Uncover the powerful benefits of baby massage, a practice Kiaty champions through her venture, Vyana Infant Massage. This episode offers a glimpse into the immediate and long-term advantages of fostering a touch-positive atmosphere, teaching consent, and nurturing healthy touch within families. From improved sleep for infants to stronger parent-child bonds and mental health support, Khyati’s insights reveal how touch can transform emotional well-being and family dynamics. We also explore the broader societal impact of nurturing touch, emphasizing how it contributes to healthier relationships and emotional security from an early age.

Our conversation with Khyati doesn’t stop with individual practices; it extends into the broader need for community support. Drawing inspiration from global postpartum customs, we explore modern solutions that can help new mothers thrive, such as virtual villages and shared knowledge platforms. Highlighting the significance of self-advocacy and education in healthcare, we champion the idea of seasoned mothers mentoring newcomers, ensuring that no parent feels alone in their journey. This episode is an inspiring call to action, encouraging society to support new moms and celebrate the power of community, touch, and transformation in motherhood.

Connect with Khyati at vyanainfantmassage.com

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Chapters

• 0:29 Motherhood, Birthing, and Transformation
• 11:45 The Power of Baby Massage
• 25:16 Building a Supportive Community for Mothers
• 36:01 Empowering Mothers for Healthy Parenting
• 51:39 Navigating Motherhood
• 57:28 Hospital Birth Practices and Update"title"
• 1:12:03 Advocating for Yourself in Healthcare
• 1:16:36 Empowering Mothers Through Advocacy and Education
• 1:21:08 Healthy Digestion in Babies

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:29

Hello, Today I have with me Kiaty Desai-Seltzer. Kiaty is a mompreneur focused on social impact and transformational change through both of her businesses. As the owner of Vianna Infant Massage LLC, she teaches parents the art and science of massaging their babies, an ancient indigenous practice for short-term and long-term benefits, addressing sleep, gas, colic reflux, immunity, bonding, congestion, growth and so much more. Through her consulting, practice, engagement and impact consulting. She works on authentic resident engagement in affordable and mixed-income housing to create thriving communities. Kathy graduated from LSU with a bachelor's in sociology and international studies and from GMU with a master's in public administration in nonprofit management.

Speaker 1: 1:22

Kathy lives in Arlington, Virginia, with her husband and two daughters. She enjoys yoga, meditation, travel, dancing and exploring new places in her free time. Kathy, welcome and thank you so much for joining me. I'm glad that we could finally do this. Yes, thank you Kelly, it's my pleasure. Well, I'm excited to hear your birth stories. I purposely wait until the podcast so that I can ask all the questions, so I'm learning this at the same time that everybody else is. So I'm excited to hear your birth stories and how that's impacted your career, because it sounds like you've done a lot of different things in your professional life.

Speaker 2: 1:59

Absolutely. Thank you so much, kelly. So, like every other mom on this planet, the stories of their baby's birth have transformed them, and for many times, from being, you know, a woman to a mother, like the biggest change of your life. And so, men, it comes from being a woman to a mother the biggest change of your life and so my story is no different. When I was pregnant with my daughter in 2015, I had been in the natural holistic world for a few years but didn't know all the things that I know today in between the births of both my girls. But I knew at the time I either wanted to birth at home, because I had a friend who had births at home, she had a doula. I just resonated with all of that and I wanted a similar story.

Speaker 2: 2:43

My husband had some concerns around birthing at home, and so we. Our compromise was working with the midw for a program at George Washington University, which actually is pretty hard to get into, and so I was finally accepted at GW with midwives and had a pretty good pregnancy for the most part. You know typical things like heartburn and all that but around 32 weeks, during the checkup, they found that my baby was breech and so, of course, as a part-time mom, all of this is new to you, to me and so I my doula recommended a chiropractor who is well known in this area, and so I started working with him. I went back to my acupuncturist because I heard about moxibustion. I did spitting babies close to maybe you know, 30 something weeks around Thanksgiving we decided to do the ECV, which is the physical manipulation of baby in utero. So they try, attempt to turn baby. For those of you who are not familiar and have reached presentation Now, the truth is, if you are birthing at home, you work with the midwives.

Speaker 2: 3:52

They're often trained in turning baby. Sometimes baby will turn, but as baby gets bigger and space narrows, it's harder for baby to turn and there's usually a reason why they're in that position. But midwives are often trained to turn them either during pregnancy or even during labor. But in the hospital, the positions that it requires you to be in, which is such as all fours, which can lend itself to opening up that pelvic and allowing them space you can't do that in the hospital for liability reasons. And so, after trying all of the things, even laying upside down on the ironing board on the sofa for weeks, you know I did everything I knew at the time, baby still wouldn't turn, and so I got to about 40 weeks, 41 weeks, and I had to be transferred to the OBs, the OBGYN group, and had to have a scheduled C-section.

Speaker 2: 4:47

So I had her at 42 weeks, had a scheduled C-section and, thanks to having a doula, while 68% of women were for having a traumatic birth, having a doula helped me prevent a traumatic birth. So, while it wasn't the birth that I wanted and in fact having a cesarean I think has resulted in things in my daughter that I maybe would not have been there had she been a vaginal it wasn't traumatic and so I credit her, my doula, to that and incorporating some things that they call gentle cesarean so not having my hands tied down so that I could hold my baby, or letting my husband announce the sex of the baby, or having a clear curtain, immediate skin to skin, you know, delaying cord clamping. Those things that are important. I was, for the most part, was able to get all of them, except one which I think might have made a difference, and that was the vaginal sweep, and so, fortunately, I had, you know, delivery that I could have, and postpartum, my mom was here just to be with me, which is very common culturally, and my husband was able to have a little bit of time off, so I had some support and even still it was.

Speaker 2: 5:58

I mean, the fourth trimester rocks your world, right. So even for those of us who feel like we got it or we're calm, or we're centered, or we're under control, you are not in control, and the more type A you are, the harder the fourth trimester will be. And everything is hard, right, your body has changed. You were different. Everything is hard. Breastfeeding is hard, figuring how to use a pump is hard, figuring how to do the baby wearing, everything is difficult, and so it really challenges you and breaks you open in ways that are unimaginable and really people can't prepare you for.

Speaker 2: 6:30

But as a result of my two experiences and working with so many hundreds of families in the last six years, I say you know, prepare for the fourth trimester, prepare for it. Like it is, it is the most important thing, because the birth is important. How babies are born does matter and no one should tell you otherwise. But most people stop there. They're not thinking about how am I going to eat healthy food, not frozen or take out how am I going to get movement? Who's going to help me with pelvic floor therapy? Who's going to teach me how to massage my baby? Those things we don't think about. And so if you are listening and you're pregnant and you still have a baby shower or you still have a registry to do, make sure you include services, not things, but services, because those are going to be what makes a difference in your fourth trimester. They may not use the beautiful crib, they may not like the swing that you got. All of those things you can purchase secondhand, you can borrow it, but you really need services to help you and baby. And if you're able to have a healthy fourth trimester, that will impact baby's first 40 years. And in my culture, in the Latin culture, la cuarentena, the first 40 days are really critical. So prioritize yourself, self-care, make sure there's a community around you All of this is easier said than done birthing in America but make sure that you are cared for. And so, having that first birth experience and understanding what I could have done differently, you know because what happened in that first year? We learned that my daughter had somehow developed food allergies things that we could talk about in another time, but the vaginal membrane sweep, which I had requested, which they had denied, maybe could have made a difference in giving her the healthy bacteria exposure that she didn't get as a result of the cesarean Fast forward two years into her life.

Speaker 2: 8:25

I was, you know, I left. I had about three and a half four months of maternity leave, which, compared to others, was great. It was still very hard to leave. I still don't think you should have to leave your child that early and we should get more maternity care, postpartum support, like other countries, to make sure that our kids are healthy and that we are healed and recovered. So I did go back to work at four months. I did cry. Every Sunday I'd come in the room, my husband's like oh, it must be Sunday Leaving her. It was very challenging. She was the first one in my family that had to go to daycare because my mom was there to care for my sister's kids and so it was hard for everybody and my goal was to just get her to the point where she was on solids and she was crawling and so we had a natty for a few months and then we put her in a home daycare, which turned out to be really great. So fast forward to when she turned two years old.

Speaker 2: 9:23

I was still in this position. I was a director of resident engagement at a nonprofit affordable housing organization and I had joined and I had done really meaningful things. I thought to make a difference, but then it seemed like most of my days were spent on, you know, office, politics and figuring out how to manage that, and not the more important work, right of helping transform people's lives by introducing capability and self-agency. And so there was one particular day. You know we're rushing from work to daycare and daycare to work all the time, and so I was rushing. For me, my commute was an hour and a half, so I was taking two trains and a bus from work just to home. And so I got to the daycare just before it closed like, yes, I got here in time, not realizing then your next job, remembering that my next job started, which was being a mother. And I remember being in the daycare, happy that I got there in time, but not seeing my child. She was right there, but she was almost a blur. And that's when I realized that I was just so stressed out, I had become an empty shell of myself and the work that I was doing that I thought was meaningful was no longer meaningful. So was it worth leaving my daughter for something that was no longer making a difference in the world? So I decided to leave that position and thought that I would go on to my next nonprofit job.

Speaker 2: 10:48

But in that time, in the three months I took off to figure out what was next, I read an article in a magazine about baby massage, and my mom had been massaging my baby since she was there. All my nieces and nephews were massaging me and my sisters were massaged. So massage has been part of my family and it's a part of my culture. So in India, where I'm from, a midwife comes to the home, massages mom and baby for three months, because they really see that massage is highly effective. But you and your baby have been through a journey physical journey, emotional journey and massage can help so many things which we could talk about. So then it's like well, this sounds really great. I wonder if moms in America know about it. And even to this day, six years later, usually about a third of people have heard about baby massage. Most people have not heard about it or think it's something that's sort of a nice to do. It's a luxury practice which, to be honest, even I thought that way. Oh yeah, that's something nice we do in our culture.

Speaker 2: 11:45

I didn't know until I went through the training that there's so much science and evidence behind it that it can really be life-changing. And so I Googled, went to Google as we do like baby massage, and there was a training coming up. So my husband encouraged me to take it and even at that time I thought this was something I would do on the side. But the community development work I was doing also kind of became a consulting opportunity. So I said, well, let me try this out. You know, I never planned to be an entrepreneur, but in motherhood we we go through so much and there are so many moments of pain that most of the entrepreneurs I know have started their businesses as a result of that pain. So out of that pain comes this beautiful product, which is intended to make the journey easier for the moms to come.

Speaker 2: 12:40

So I want moms that don't know about it, who are still not pregnant or thinking about pregnancy or in their 20s, to know that I should massage my baby. That's a non-negotiable. And similarly my partners who I've worked with, who are in lactation because they had breastfeeding challenges, or who are sleep consultants because their baby didn't sleep like. All of this came from a pain point, which is really beautiful, right. So we want better than we had and we don't want others to suffer like we did. And so I'd started Beyond Infant Massage and this was six years ago and in the second year I was getting more requests from other places. So I created a digital course that moms could download on demand to view as they could, based on their time. But the benefits have been so incredible and so life changing. But the benefits have been so incredible and so life-changing.

Speaker 2: 13:36

So, in the short term, baby massage helps with improved sleep, which we all need, especially that first year without having a village to support us. Reduced gas colic. Improved immunity, because it increases white blood cells that are produced. It helps the breastfeeding relationships. It helps bonding. You know most of us will suffer with postpartum depression and anxiety, which is very common. It can help with that Congestion brain, you know, growth just so many benefits, short-term and long-term. And they could go on about how you should never stop massaging your baby. My eight and four-year-olds still get massaged because there are so many benefits to it, and so I have really become even more invested and passionate about the power of baby massage when I see what it does for our families, when I see that they are so excited we just had a client this morning whose baby was suffering with colic she's like, oh my God, day two. And I was like this is awesome and it really improves our lives. And so when we are in the thick of it we're in the fourth trimester we're just trying to sleep, to try to get baby to stop crying. It's incredibly beneficial. And then when we're out of that, it helps with that ongoing bonding, with growing pains, with self-regulation, with understanding what is loving church versus not loving church, because we ask baby permission before we massage them. Can mama massage you? So you're giving them the ability to consent, right?

Speaker 2: 14:58

When my daughter was two, when I was going through the training, I was like, well, I haven't massaged you since you're a baby, let's do this. And she's like, no, she's just just a strong will today. But first I was like, well, this is good for you. I'm your mom, I know it's good for you. And then I had to really accept that it's her body right, even as her mother, she has say over who touches it and when and how. That didn't last long, right, she started massaging her baby dolls and then asking me for a massage, and to this day she and her sister asked me, but in that moment I had to respect her autonomy. And so, you know, usually they will ask me for a massage or I'll ask them do you want a massage? But it really sets them up to understanding relationships.

Speaker 2: 15:40

We talk a lot about how America is considered touch deprived, and this is true even pre COVID, right, the client I had this morning, her husband, is British and so he's very he's very like, just nervous about touch, and that's okay because we all have a touch history. But there is a huge detriment to our health our physical, physiological, emotional health when we are not touched. And so what they found in studies is that where there is less touch, there's more violence. And unfortunately we see that in our communities in America every day. Right, we're struggling with things all the time. They study children on playgrounds in France versus Italy. They saw how kids touch each other in meaningful, loving ways in those countries versus in America.

Speaker 2: 16:25

And so when we are not touched which is physiologically, as a human, the most essential sense that we have, we can live without any other sense. But touch is one that we cannot survive without, and when we neglect that and we undermine and undervalue that, there is a consequence to our health and our feelings of safety and security. So our children need to hear I love you, but even more so they need to feel that we love them. It's similar to a business handshake or the flight attendant or waitress that gets a better tip because she's been more physically interactive, and so we've tended to either say over-sexualize things or say no touch. So the opposite of predatory touch is not no touch, the opposite is loving touch. So we're really setting up our kids like.

Speaker 2: 17:17

This is what loving touch looks like in the event that you are in a relationship or you know, oftentimes our teens and tweens subconsciously feel like I need touch and they seek that out in relationships. Right, I need to be hugged, I need a cuddle, but if you're getting that in the home, then you won't feel as much of a need that I have to be in a relationship. Furthermore, when they get to being in their own relationships and marriages, they know how to model loving touch. If fathers are engaged in massage, that's so great for a father to say this is what loving touch looks like. For a young girl to say, my father would massage my arm after a soccer practice, or you know and you do it in a context, right. So with babies, a cute baby in a diaper on the floor is very normal, right? Obviously you wouldn't do that with a tween. But they're coming home from dance or from soccer and you're saying hey, you seem like you've had a rough day, do you want a foot massage? You from soccer in there and you're saying, hey, you seem like you've had a rough day, do you want a foot massage? It can go a really long way. So not only do they feel a sense of safety and security, do they feel love, but they're also understanding hey, this is what loving touch looks like, and I'm getting it in the home, and so having partners involved is also incredibly powerful.

Speaker 2: 18:29

My husband is a mental health clinician, so he works a lot with people with addiction and trauma, and everything goes back to this early zero to seven years. Right, it's all about attachment, and so when we don't have that healthy attachment, we see behaviors, sometimes immediately and sometimes later on in life. And so in these six years, well, my second daughter is now four when I realized I've learned so much after the first and then starting this business, partnering with so many wonderful organizations and providers such as yourself. I've learned so much more about birth, pregnancy, postpartum, and realized how much we are lacking in America in caring for mom after baby. Right, acoc says it's like wrapper to candy. So once mom has her baby, we toss her aside like we toss a wrapper aside. You know, the baby shower is about the baby, everything is about the baby, and then we have some of the worst outcomes. Right, we have a high maternal mortality, high infant mortality, yet so much money in America. So why is that? And there are reasons for interventions and other things, but we are not caring for our moms in postpartum.

Speaker 2: 19:38

So, learning all of this with my second baby, I was like I'm going to do things even more differently than I did with my first. It happened to be COVID and I was like I'm having her at home and there was no argument about it. So in January 2021, I had her at home, so she was a VBAC and I had a wonderful midwife the same doula but the midwife had to approve me to be a candidate to be a VBAC, right. So they have to look at the incision. How many years have since passed? And since there are five years between the two of them and everything checked out, I was approved as a candidate.

Speaker 2: 20:12

So what was also really great is that she came to my home, which was great during a pandemic, but I also had a four-year-old at home, so how would I leave her for all my doctor's appointments? So it was a really nice service to have her come to the house Having the gestational diabetes exam with real food. Another option I didn't know was possible was like, also life-changing. Like none of that yucky drink, I had a real meal. She tested me Having my daughter there to also experience my journey.

Speaker 2: 20:41

But I also had exposed her to birth videos because I didn't want her to be there and be scared and what's happening with mommy, like, is she okay? And so she became as addicted as I am to birth videos. I love to watch birth videos, so she loves it and she said when I grow up I want to do the just one part of what the midwife does, you know. But it really helped her to see as well, like about birth can be a beautiful physiological experience and not a scary, traumatic experience and so with my second I had her at home, I had lined up the providers I needed. I knew I needed pelvic floor therapy. I knew I needed support with sleep. I knew I needed a lactation consultant. My mom was again here for a few months and I think also it being a pandemic and us being able to sort of slow down and just focus on our family, which is another thing I recommend to my clients.

Speaker 2: 21:33

Culturally and in many families, the first three months you won't have any visitors and if it's just you at home, that can be completely isolating and could make matters worse. But if you have your mom or aunt coming with you or your husband's there, it would be really incredible for you to just say, like we will see you at month three or in 60 days or whatever you decide, Because after that you're going to open the baby up to the world. Everyone will be able to see them and it will be wonderful. But you will never get that time back where it's just you and your child. You're getting a sense of who your baby is, you're recovering, you're not hosting, and in order to do that you need a village to help care for you. You need people to say we're going to make warm nourishing foods like no, smoothies and salads, right, like you've got all this empty space in your belly that needs to be replenished with warm nourishing foods and Chinese medicine, indian Ayurveda. They'll all say, like, you need warm nourishing foods to replenish.

Speaker 2: 22:33

Another practice that I didn't know about even with with my second, so if I ever had a third which I'm not planning on, I would definitely do this which is called belly binding another wonderful eastern practice. My instructor is Malay. It's a Malaysian rooted in Malaysian culture, where they come so, like in India where someone comes and cares for you, in Malaysia somebody comes and prepares herbal baths for you, teas, nourishing foods, and they put a bind on you. So I know when I was in the hospital they gave this sort of Velcro bind that was uncomfortable and it's plastic and it sucked it's the worst.

Speaker 2: 23:06

It's the worst, but this bind is made out of cloth. It fits like a corset. She's made it to where you can tie it yourself and the idea is to restore your body, putting the organs back into place, putting the ribcage back into place, helping you become like this. You know your smaller size, not that there's any hurry to get to pre-baby size Like it took you 40 weeks For stability. For stability, pelvic floor Breastfeeding helps, because I know I had terrible pains while breastfeeding this would have helped me not to do the punching thing.

Speaker 2: 23:37

And even today my younger one is four I'm still struggling with pelvic floor, things right, and I did the pelvic floor therapy. But maybe having done the belly binding in that first three months could have made a difference. And so we don't know. Until we experience it we think we'll be fine. I don't need this person, I don't need this service, but you just don't know. And every experience is different. And so, vianna, infant Massage was inspired by my daughters. They are the reason I do it, because I see even today, as old as they are, how much massage benefits them and I want that for every family.

Speaker 2: 24:13

And if attachment or lack of attachment is the root of so many issues in American society, and I also, truly believe, lack of community, just coming up, coming from India on a trip, community is so integral to their existence. So, like, my girls were watched by strangers that, you know, even on the plane, like a complete, there was a female on one side, a male on the other side, who didn't know each other, and both of them cared for my kids, both my girls, without us asking, without us, you know, they just cared for them. They, like, fed them their their meals. They told them their eyes were too close to the TV. You know, yeah, get involved On a 15 hour flight, like I really appreciated that we weren't alone with these. You know, get involved. All of that is rooted in a lack of community, and we're so isolated and we're so independent here for better and worse that we really are struggling, and moms are struggling. We are raising children on our own, without the support of mothers and aunts and grandmothers, the people that will tell us this is how you breastfeed, this is how you massage, and so we have to create our own villages, and sometimes we have to pay for those villages.

Speaker 2: 25:33

It's better than not having any support at all, and so I do believe that a lot of the things that we're struggling with here have solutions, and a lot of them are being practiced around the world. So we know, in korea, for example, they have these postpartum care centers which are popping up around america, but they're incredibly expensive. In China, there's a golden sitting month for one month. Nobody does any. When you have a baby, you care for your baby and your community cares for other kids. They do the cooking, they do the cleaning, right? You're not expected to do it all. So having moms come here and birth babies, go back to work, cook clean pay bills, run businesses is a recipe for disaster and it's affecting our families, and it's affecting them short term and long term. But if we look to these practices infant massage, belly binding, the sitting months all of these things can help lower our rates of postpartum depression.

Speaker 2: 26:30

Anxiety increases our chances of survival and thriving not just surviving in fourth trimester, but thriving like. The answers are there, but we have to figure out how we can fit them into our society, into our way of life, which is not easy. And moms themselves look around and say, well, she's doing it or they're doing it, I can do it. I can do it without any help. I can survive without sleep, you know. But we can't like we need help and those people that you see are doing it are not thriving. We're all struggling. They're struggling. We're just masking the struggle. Are they're masking it right? Definitely. Don't rely on social media for your gauge. Like we, there's no shame in asking for help. We definitely need people around us to care for us so that we can better care for our kids, because we can't do both.

Speaker 1: 28:16

Yeah, absolutely. There was so much that you said. I started taking notes because I didn't want to interrupt your flow. You were talking about the service registry. Yes, that is so important and not something that was an option for me when I had my kids. It didn't exist, it was just the things registry right, right, wasn't important.

Speaker 1: 28:36

My gosh, I could have paid for my doula. I could have paid for breastfeeding support. There was so much that I could have paid for that, was it? Ultimately like a lot of this stuff. Like you're right, my daughter didn't like the swing, so that was a waste of money to get a brand new swing because I was paranoid about germs. Yeah, that's exactly right. That doesn't, you know? Like make it make sense. I mean, there's ways to check things out and make sure that it's not going to be a hazard, that it's not. Yeah, exactly, also, there's. You can rent things. Yes, that's available now. Like companies Yep, there are companies that rent baby items. It's amazing what you have access to and, like you were saying, like, sometimes you have to pay for your village or you have to. So that's why I created the bump and and Beyond Virtual Village, which is essentially so that we have access to the information right, so that service providers like you can share what moms need to know Absolutely, and, like your wealth of information, you know.

Speaker 2: 29:31

And we don't know, because you've gone through. Yeah, yes, absolutely, and we don't know.

Speaker 1: 29:36

And even if somebody doesn't. Yeah, exactly, and even if it's not, for you to have like one condensed place where you can learn about it is so important. You know, like, oh, I don't know if I need lactation, but my gosh, that infant massage is really important. That sounds like it would. And I'm just going to say I have done some sort of variation of the infant massage, probably not to the extent or to the expertise of what you have done, but because my kids had colic and then I have friends whose babies are, like you know, constipated, I'm like give them to me, let's move around. You know, they do tell us that in nursing school they do talk about that movement and how to? You know, it's a brief verb, not even a chapter probably a paragraph, but they do.

Speaker 2: 30:17

I mean NICU nurses are often. When I went through my training I had NICU nurses there, right, they often massage preemies to shorten the duration in the hospital, right, and you massaging them is just intuitive, like we know intuitively that we should be caressing and touching. And golden hour and skin scan and kangaroo care, like all of that has been around, right, and it's still around for millennia, so it's not new. But intuitively we know as women and as mothers that our babies need touch. They need that skin to skin and I've even seen a device that massages baby and it's cute, but I'm like the whole point is like your hand to your baby's body right.

Speaker 2: 30:56

While in India, midwife will come and massage mom and baby, here we teach parents how to massage their babies for a couple reasons. One, no one can afford to have someone come to their house every day. But, more importantly, we are trying to build the parents' capacity that, even after I'm gone, you know how to massage. Like it should not be something cute you did for baby when they were little, but it's like part of your ethos, your family's lifestyle. This is what we do. It helps us, you know, get over hard days, get over, colleague, whatever it is.

Speaker 2: 31:26

But our family is about loving touch, and so, if I can teach a parent how to massage our baby, as much as I would love to massage these cute babies all day long, it's just oxytocin everywhere. Right, I would have wanted to do the best job in the world, but I have to do it. I do it on a baby doll and mom will follow or dad will follow, partner will follow, and they will learn as I go, and so for me it's really important that they know how to do it when the session is over, otherwise it doesn't have the impact that is needed that you can say okay, colic is over six months down your line. The baby's teething oh wait, I remember there are strokes for that. Or, in a year, baby's having growing pain oh, I remember the strokes for that. So I really want it to be a practice that mom's comfortable doing without having somebody outside coming doing for them.

Speaker 1: 32:16

Yeah, I love that. That's so important too, because I think that's another reason why I like the community is because everybody has to have a virtual offer at a price point that works for most people, because, like you said, nobody can afford to have the midwife in this country come to your house and massage you every day. So you need to learn those skills and I think it's just such a game changer to be able to be exposed to that information and decide what works for you.

Speaker 2: 32:41

Yeah, and when I you know I didn't share this, but the same week that I was being trained to be an infant massage therapist instructor, my daughter was two, as I'd shared. She woke up at midnight screaming, and so my husband and I jumped out of bed. And I remembered then, cause we could tell like, oh, this sounds like a gas pain. And I remember that daycare said she had a lot of sweet potatoes which are good for you, but a lot of fiber.

Speaker 2: 33:05

So you know, in that moment I'm like, okay, we can give her gas colic drops or guess what. I just learned this routine like literally that day were gas colic, and so I asked my husband. I said, should I do the routine? He said, well, it can't hurt. And I'm still a little bit like nervous, insecure. What if it doesn't work? What if I look dumb? What if it hurts her? What if the crying continues? You know all those things. There's so much intuition that we have that is sort of we're robbed of every day. But, like you, you knew that touch was good for your kids without being trained in massage. And so I was like hesitant and self-doubting but I went ahead and did it. I did the routine in less than five minutes, kelly. She exploded right Like so much for a wipe. So we jumped into the shower, got cleaned up, came back out. She had another explosive diaper. We jumped back into the shower. I came back out. She had a third diaper, like it literally cleaned her out.

Speaker 2: 34:00

You know my husband's like what did you do? You exploded, our daughter, and she did. She just got cleaned out. But guess what? She slept beautifully the rest of the night. And so not only did I help her right immediately, holistically, naturally, effectively I also felt empowered as a result of it. I was like, wow, I just helped her with my hands, I just solved her gas problems without any intervention. I didn't have to rush to the hospital, I didn't, none of that, I just did it myself.

Speaker 2: 34:29

Double feature right that you that I get from teaching like not only am I helping them help their baby, but I'm helping them feel like I got this, and we don't often feel like that as parents. We don't feel like I got this, and we don't often feel like that as parents. We don't feel like I got this, or once we do got it, there's another thing they're expressing that we don't got. So I love that. They have a sense of empowerment and like, okay, even if I don't know this or I don't know how to help them, I can learn, I can get it. And so there is that piece as well that I really love, that I can help a mom or dad feel empowered.

Speaker 1: 37:18

Yeah, that's amazing. You're talking about massaging both mom and baby and the NICU nurses learning.

Speaker 1: 37:20

So labor and delivery nurses are now learning that's part of spinning babies is the actual massage touch, so like when they're talking about the ways to touch to get mom loosened up, they talk about the fascia and so like the really light touch and the jiggles and the just warming your hands and that kind of stuff to loosen up the fascia and then moving into positions that like stretch and elongate some of those muscles that can kind of, when you're sitting for so long, be tensed up and make it hard to deliver.

Speaker 1: 37:49

They're showing us, they're requiring now nurses in some of the hospitals that I work at to go to some of these classes like spinning babies, and we had a purposeful positioning class to continue to help nurses understand how to utilize touch in order to make delivery more effective, and it's making everybody's hospital experience better. Oh, that's amazing. So, yeah, I hear what you're saying and I see also the twofold benefit. It's not just about positioning, it's not about thinking about the baby in the pelvis and the bones, it's also about how to utilize touch to bring about the oxytocin rush and the safety and the connection that you need in order to feel safe in a strange environment having your baby. Absolutely.

Speaker 2: 38:32

And right. And so, to that point, touch is the first sense that develops in utero and it's the last sense that leaves our bodies. When we die, right, you can lose your other senses, but that's the only one we can't survive without. And so baby already knows. You know a lot of moms like instinctively rub their bellies right, like how do they know to do that? Right, but that is actually really good for for them and their baby.

Speaker 2: 38:55

And so there's this whole field. I mean in the East it's been there since thousands of years. But in the Western world, talking about conscious pregnancy, like what does that mean? And so a lot of people well, how can I not be conscious and pregnant? But we are told to, you know, take our vitamins, and you know. But we are told to you know, take our vitamins, and you know. Maybe we're told to exercise and eat right, but nobody talks about the mental and emotional health of us and how that affects our babies. And so we know in a lot of the field, the studies around epigenetics, which Bruce Lipton has done a lot in, and that we are affecting their perception of the world with our experience.

Speaker 2: 39:31

So, not only does baby eat what we eat and all of that, but baby feels what we feel. So when we're sad, baby is sad. When we're angry, baby is angry. And that's not to say that we can't have those emotions. This is another thing I changed in my pregnancies because I learned the hard way that toddler tantrums are related to maternal stress. So what we experience right when we're carrying our babies, we think, is just what we're experiencing, but they are holding all of that. So we know that anxious moms have anxious babies. You know, we know that like there's a difference between our first, second, third children, like the third ones, are usually more chill. The first are more anxious because we were anxious, you know what we were doing and we were worried about everything and all these things. But they have found stress in umbilical cords. They have found that the taste of the amniotic fluid changes for baby when we're stressed.

Speaker 2: 40:24

You know that. You know happy tears and sad tears taste different. There are all these things that they're learning more about, but the idea of epigenetics is that we are preparing our babies for the world they're being born into. So if we are stressed, we are telling them you need to be stressed because this world is like rough, but for the most part, most of us are fortunate not to be living in war-torn areas or extreme poverty or disaster zones. While there are people living there, we don't. We have an everyday modern industrial stress going through.

Speaker 2: 40:57

What I did with my first. With my second I was like okay, it's, you know, it's covid, my husband's dad is dying. You know my husband, mom's husband is dying. I don't have any support, I'm isolated. I you know I put a four-year-old through like just all these stressors, but I had to be cautious. Okay, mommy's up here, I'm going to drink my favorite tea, I'm going to go for a walk, I'm going to take a bath, and my second child is super chill and I attribute that to being more conscious and conscientious in my pregnancy to say wait, I can't just think about myself Like my baby is feeling all of this.

Speaker 2: 41:32

I don't manage my stress, it will be harder for me and for her in the birth. You know the birth can be difficult based on your pregnancy. The postpartum experience is affected by your pregnancy and their toddler years Because, if you think about it, if you're stressed, they're experiencing that stress. Where's that stress going to go for them? It's just going to stay until they're able to release it. And I've had clients who have children, who are really weepy or who are really anxious and like, well, what was your postpartum? Like, what were the early? Oh, I was crying all the time. Yeah, you know, we're connected, even when we're physically not anymore, and they believe that, at least for the first couple of years, you are still attached to your child. They feel what you feel, they experience what you experience.

Speaker 2: 42:15

So the birth is incredibly important. Your postpartum is really important, but so is the pregnancy, you know, and put it all on mom. But like it is, it is up to us, but it's also up to our partners and our community to say, like this mom is doing an incredible thing for our society right now. They're creating a new human being. Not only is she physically building the eyebrows and eyelashes and all these wonderful things, but the quality of the child and the child's personality and values, and all of that is happening too, right now. So let's love on this mom, let's take care of her, let's make sure she's not too stressed out and she has what she needs and whatever her requests and demands are as crazy as they might seem are fulfilled, because what she's doing is massive. And let's honor what she's doing.

Speaker 2: 43:04

And so there's not enough of that honoring women and the incredible work that they're doing in building babies and birthing babies and feeding babies and caring for them, you know, for their lifetime. It is, it is your service to humanity, right? We're all doing this. Like I want moms to have beautiful babies so that my kids have wonderful. You know people to live in a world with right. Like if I'm completely selfish. I want all of us to have babies who are loved on and more thriving, and baby massage is one way to do that. Conscious pregnancy is another way. Whatever you want to do to have a healthy baby and healthy life, throw it all in and ask your family. Say this is what I want. I want massages. Don't give me an expensive stroller. Give me massages. Put this on my registry. Have it paid for by flex spending. There's so many options nowadays that we didn't have when we were pregnant.

Speaker 1: 43:57

Yeah, I love that. I think every mom needs to find what it is that's going to help them feel like they are safe in their bodies and taking care of themselves and being taken care of, and, yes, I think that's great and I think that we don't. We don't stress it enough because it's there's such a you know, pull up your bootstraps, society here, and it's just and it's toxic, which is which is why I'm actually haven't announced this yet, but we are going to start doing pampering showers in the postpartum period with the service registry, wow, so that we encourage moms. And the reason we're starting with the after period is, a, because it's harder and B, because it's really hard to get moms that are pregnant to think about what they want and what they're going to need until after the fact, right. So we always say prepare for pregnancy.

Speaker 1: 44:45

What you have to do, I feel like more than anything, is mentally prepare for the pregnancy and the you you know, and then, if you need massages or whatever during your pregnancy, you focus on that and then, after the fact, have the village that's going to help you, so like if you needed the infant massage after, because that's just what your journey is telling you then being able to have that pampering shower a couple weeks after you deliver and be able to ask for those things yeah, and just changing the culture, because I think that there is a market for loving on moms afterwards yes, absolutely, seeing it showing up and people wanting to know how to help moms and then they just go over to the house and see the baby and they sit there and they're like I don't know what to do.

Speaker 1: 45:29

Now we're going to help people learn what to do, like you can finance their postpartum journey and and be a part of that process. It looks a little bit different than it does in other countries like India, where people know what to do, right, because it's ingrained in the culture. Exactly, we can start making that part of the culture and I think that it's just so important to start changing the culture so that we love on moms after delivery is over Absolutely and you're so right.

Speaker 2: 45:55

I mean, when I go to moms about belly binding mostly belly binding because that's about them they're like I don't have time and they're right, right Because they're doing all the things, but we neglect ourselves because we have the bootstraps culture. We're like that mama's doing it. I really don't have time. But there's a cost to that for us, but also for our kids, and we are still women with beautiful gifts and talents and interests, and we are mothers too, but we're not always going to be needed as much as we are needed then, and we do lose ourselves, you know. So we have to make sure that we prioritize ourselves as well as caring for our babies. And, like you said, there's either the bootstraps culture or it's like, oh, you just need this product and it'll solve problems, right, like that's what we're told. There's a multi-million dollar industry around baby registries. So I love that even though you and I didn't have that that other moms can go to a registry and create a service-based option for them. But the other thing I did differently with May 2nd, even during a pandemic, was something called a mother's blessing and that, I think, is rooted in the Native American culture. But instead of focusing on baby. The mother's blessing focuses on mama, and so and then I actually hosted one for my best friend. But we did things like doing a floral foot bath for mom. You know we all like took turns massaging her arms and legs that are tired from carrying a baby. We wrote positive notes that she could post it during labor or afterwards.

Speaker 2: 47:33

For me. They created a necklace of different stones that each of them picked for whatever reason, and they made that necklace for me to wear during labor. It was about me. There were no like cute onesies and gifts for baby. It was about me. And for me to be able to read during labor like you got this mom, you are stronger than you believe. Or for me to look at notes in postpartum when I'm like really struggling and suffering, like I've got a village. They're there. They're not physically there, but they've got my back, and so that's something else that you can think about if you are pregnant.

Speaker 2: 48:07

Have something that's a mother's blessing. It's intimate. No like fancy Instagram decorations, you know, no expensive showers. This is the meaningful time when you connect with your best girl and guy friends and maybe your sisters and moms are there and they're just like you are doing amazing, you're going to be an amazing mom and here are all the ways we're going to show you and you can like customize it. It was COVID, so I didn't get the loving touch, which I love, but I got the beautiful necklace and I got the positive notes for me to read and a beautiful thread for me to tie around baby's bassinet to ensure that they're safe. All these like really meaningful things that you will appreciate more than the DIY onesies that are often very like, hard to manipulate Right, and don't you feel so inept when you're buying somebody a onesie and you're sending it to them.

Speaker 1: 48:56

You're like this is meaningless. I'm just. I'm trying to express to them that I care about what their postpartum experience is like or what their baby's journey is like, but it just feels so like nothing.

Speaker 2: 49:08

Let's make it more meaningful, yeah, and I've noticed that there's a trend now to do the what do they call it Like nesting parties. So you're going over maybe the mom and dad are giving you pizza and soda and you're like helping them get ready for their baby with the room or setting up the diaper state, whatever that is, and that's like a really cool new trend happening up.

Speaker 1: 49:32

The diaper state, whatever that is, and that's like a really cool new trend happening. We didn't have one, but we lived in New York with my daughter and my husband called his cousin who lived down the street, which is why we lived in the area we lived in and I was like pizza and beer guys.

Speaker 2: 49:42

Here you go I got you Please help me. Right, or even yeah, and there's things that you can do in postpartum to get help, and the same thing when now, when I have friends or family that are pregnant, like this is really not going to make a difference. I know that you want to register, but like, even like a breastfeeding station, a basket with like water and all the things that you need for breastfeeding that you never knew that you would need because it seems so natural, like that will go a much, you know, longer way so you could have a party to like create that you know yes, and come into the house and look and see what you could, where it could go, what you could use.

Speaker 1: 50:16

Yeah, don't go, yeah.

Speaker 2: 50:17

And I did that with a friend. In between knowing what I knew and experiencing it because you really don't know until you go through it You're like, oh, everybody's having babies, right, like everybody's having babies, you know what's the big deal, why are they making a big deal about breastfeeding? And then you go through it and you're like, oh, okay, now again, it's not a friend who had a baby and it was like you know, went over, because she was struggling, you know, with some postpartum depression, anxiety, and I was like I'm going to fold your laundry, I'm going to wash dishes, I would love to just sit here and hold that cute baby, but to help you, like you want to be able to do that.

Speaker 1: 50:58

You want to bond with your baby right, I think that from you. And so think about when you visit a mom, not about you, what you want, but what they need. Bring them the coffee, bring them a lunch, yeah, put the dishes away favorite drink from starbucks.

Speaker 2: 51:04

Whatever you think of, yes, you want to keep. You know if they want.

Speaker 1: 51:08

You don't make them ask they don't know what they want. They don't know what they need.

Speaker 2: 51:11

They're barely alive right now or too shy to ask for help. You know just too, we don't want to just come into a house. But you really just need to come into the house, look around and see what needs to be done and just do it. Don't be asked, don't wait. I don't care if they get offended, but they're going to appreciate that their dishes are washed, their laundry is and they have a few minutes extra when baby's sleeping to also take it out. That will go a long way.

Speaker 2: 51:36

And put a frozen dinner in the fridge Exactly, and we remember. We will always remember, as moms, who was there during our postpartum, who was there during our pregnancy to care for us. You never forget that.

Speaker 1: 51:46

No, you don't. The people that came to me and were like, tell me what you're feeling, yeah, and I was like when is it going to get back to normal? And I remember that's the fun question, right.

Speaker 2: 51:56

Because you know what she's going to say to me.

Speaker 1: 51:59

Exactly Redefine normal. Never, friend. This is new normal and you will figure it out. That's right. It was terrifying but also so freeing, because it was the ability to release that expectation yes, that I was going back to normal, that you might have a baby and go back to normal. There is no more normal like your. Normal cannot ever be the same and you need to know that, going into motherhood, you're not going to go back to the efficiency you once had. You're going to figure out how to do it less efficient and more intentional.

Speaker 2: 52:34

Yeah, and I like to be efficient and effective, but they're teaching us just like chill out and slow down, right, like there is a reason for that. Our brains are literally different than they were. It's not that we're not smarter, but they've been reorganized to care for a human being than to, like, manage spreadsheets or to-do lists right like our, and there's a season for everything there's a yeah, absolutely like.

Speaker 1: 52:57

This isn't like. Your new normal isn't necessarily going to be forever. No, your new normal is the beginning of this normal, for now, until your child finds another phase to go through, yeah, get and like, help you well, and then also like having a six and a nine-year-old. Now I'm realizing I can do things that I couldn't do last year, right, and so now the new normal is getting back to look a little bit more like the old normal but my priorities are different.

Speaker 2: 53:22

They're different.

Speaker 1: 53:23

And the things that I want to do are different.

Speaker 2: 53:25

Yeah, yeah. I often think like, oh, I wouldn't I miss the newborn stage, but I don't miss me in the newborn stage, like I'm going to be me now, right Like healed and all that taking care of a beautiful little baby and not like getting you know I'm not tired, I'm not exhausted.

Speaker 2: 53:40

But there is something that you mentioned that's really valuable that I found as much as I love, like working one-on-one. The group classes can be incredibly beneficial because you have other parents around to say this worked for us, this didn't work for us. You get validation, you get resources, you get renewed energy to say, okay, I can do this right. Yeah, and so I love that when moms come together in a group class to say like, hey, try this, or this worked for us. Facebook groups are better, worse I know some of them like it brings out the trolls and people are mean to each other. There's also a lot of anecdotal evidence that you can say, oh, maybe we went through the exact thing and this is what worked for us. Yeah, so this is sort of a real life Facebook group, and what you've created, too, is getting moms to come together as a village to support each other, share resources. So there is a lot of.

Speaker 2: 54:32

I remember being in going to La Leche League meeting after my first and I was like overwhelmed and exhausted and breastfeeding like was draining, and I was always like when is this going to be over, you know. And then later on I enjoyed it. But those early days were like excruciating, and I think I asked a question like how do you, how do you cope, or how you know, and somebody said I think she said something like online shopping and everyone laughed and I was like, yeah, okay, I think. Sometimes I'm like, oh, I couldn't distract myself by scrolling and at that time, you know, social media wasn't as big as it is now. But just to hear another mom say like there really is nothing to do, no easy way to get around it. You have to go through it. But one way I found to cope is to shop. Yeah, amazon makes so much good money from your parents right.

Speaker 2: 55:15

Yes, the validation was really what I needed. And also, going to a breastfeeding center in DC one day and hearing another mom maybe I seemed to frazzle and overwhelmed and she's like you're doing a great job and I was like, well, thanks, you know. So it's just really nice to get that community of support from somewhere to validate and keep us moving and encouraging us to like it will get easier, it will promise you.

Speaker 1: 55:40

Yeah, Well, and in finding a community you align with. So you're talking about there are trolls, right? If there's trolls, maybe that's not your community. No, there are good groups out there. So just have the patience to keep looking until you find where you're comfortable Like, for instance. So I joined the group that's in our local area just because another mom recommended it and I was so jaded from another national group that I was on because there are so many trolls in that.

Speaker 2: 56:04

Right.

Speaker 1: 56:05

Yeah, and I was like I don't know, I don't like mom's groups you know, and so I got into the one that I'm in now and they are so helpful and so nonjudgmental that it was like I even learned skills to not judge people from this group. Yes, I was like, oh, I'm judging myself Right, and also, because I'm judging myself, I'm judging other people and maybe I should just chill out and I'm like learning from this group.

Speaker 2: 56:28

Yeah, find your group, right, like don't settle, absolutely don't settle, because there I've been on and I'm still on some groups that they're just like me, like unnecessarily hostile and aggressive and like this is just not necessary, right, like we are all struggling. We're all on the struggle bus together. Let's not pull each other down, let's just help each other.

Speaker 1: 59:00

Stay on, yeah, and I think when, so nine years ago, when my daughter was born, we were just coming out of that mommy judgment phase, okay, of like social media, yeah, you know. And now we're like we've slowly transitioned to that. You got this mom and like being you know supportive, but that was just such an interesting transition to have a baby.

Speaker 2: 59:22

Yeah, like in, we're not like stressed out enough it's stressed out enough. You're railing on yourself enough doing a good job, and then you get that from the online community that people you know being mean it doesn't help yes, yeah, like find your group, like kelly said yeah.

Speaker 1: 59:39

So there's a couple of just hospital things that you mentioned that have kind of since you had your first delivery was planned in a hospital because of the breach and being 42 weeks, there are some things that have actually changed in the hospital and I want to share that because when I started as a labor and delivery nurse, like nine years ago, it was true Like people were not able to get into hands and knees at certain hospitals due to liability. Like nine years ago, if we had had a patient with an epidural, we would have not done hands and knees because it's not safe. We would have not done hands and knees because it's not safe. But now, with spinning babies and with the purposeful positioning, they're teaching us how to safely maneuver somebody who is epiduralized into the hands and knees position and hold them there without hurting ourselves or them. Wow. So I feel empowered. At this point you need from coworkers and my coworkers also feel empowered. We all use those skills to get patients at hands and knees and epidurals.

Speaker 1: 1:00:47

Now which is wonderful because then we can turn your baby. And also I noticed that when I first started they started to consider like a person being awake with their arms underneath the ties, the Velcro ties that you can get out of. That's not okay for people that are awake because it could be considered a restraint.

Speaker 1: 1:01:09

So, at the hospitals I work at I can't speak for other hospitals we haven't been doing that. So it's something that, for safety when someone is asleep, you need to so that they don't fall off the table because of some involuntary jerking of their arms or whatever.

Speaker 1: 1:01:24

But at this point it's to be expected that if you are awake for a surgery and I'm saying this because I want my listeners to know that if you're awake for a surgery, you should not need to have your arms tied down unless you're a threat to yourself or someone else, which is a completely different scenario.

Speaker 2: 1:01:41

They mentioned that it was so you don't touch your IVs. So I was like okay, if I don't touch them. That's dumb. Do I need to not?

Speaker 1: 1:01:49

They will use every excuse to try yeah, no, but we don't do. We don't. At least at the hospitals that I work at, we don't do that anymore because it's considered a risk rate. It's there If mom feels more secure hanging on to something.

Speaker 2: 1:02:04

It's there At the hospital that I'm working at and that was from a C-section.

Speaker 1: 1:02:06

Yes, that was from your C-section. Yeah, yeah, yeah, we would never tie someone down in labor the skin-to-skin at the C-section, so that has been something that it's a challenge, right, because you need staff to kind of assist with that, because you're covered. How did that work for you? Because up until very recently we haven't been and we don't do it standard for C-sections at the hospitals that I'm working at, but we've been trying to push for it, so how did that look for you?

Speaker 2: 1:02:34

I feel like we were able to get the immediate skin to skin, and that was the one reason I didn't want my hands, so I'm gonna be able to hold her.

Speaker 1: 1:02:43

I. Did you feel it or did you feel strong enough, like you didn't have any issues with the anesthesia or I felt strong enough, but I didn't have complete mobility, I think.

Speaker 2: 1:02:53

Right, I was still a little bit restricted. My husband was there too, but I I feel like I was able to hold her after okay after.

Speaker 1: 1:03:00

Yeah, yeah, so because I just remember, like five or six years ago, there was a post on social media about like being charged for the skin to skin and interesting, and it was kind of. It was interesting because it was essentially charged for another staff member to make sure that, because you don't have any muscle control from basically like your breasts down or even sometimes your nipples down, it's hard because you can't use your muscles to engage your arms, like you're very limited, and so that was the thought process, another thought process, and I'm just sharing this because we need to figure out how to problem solve this and evolve right Evidence shows that skin to skin is best right after delivery.

Speaker 1: 1:03:41

Yes, yes, and we had issues with the temperature of the OR, and there's now some evidence that it doesn't need to be as cold as it normally is.

Speaker 1: 1:03:53

There's being pushed back and I believe ACOG has talked about this as well. But then one of the hospitals I worked at, there was concern from the neonatal team that the OR is too cold to be doing skin to skin with the mom. But if the mom is, if the baby's fully covered and the staff's making sure, and then that leads back to the having the staff there to educate, to make sure. So it's just like one thing leads to another and it's all about to make it hard to do skin to skin. But it's worth problem solving. Yes, absolutely, hospitals out there. We need to continue to work on prioritizing skin to skin during the C-section.

Speaker 2: 1:04:26

Yes, absolutely, and yeah, we know that first hours are critical, especially for the breastfeeding relationship. Have you seen the same thing with the delayed cord clamping?

Speaker 1: 1:04:36

So, yes, it's standard 45 seconds to a minute at both of the hospitals that I work at, and some providers, if the baby's okay, will let it go longer during the C-section. But we also want to make sure that we get mom sewn up. So it's like that balance right. We're not going to be five minutes of delayed cord clamping when someone is sitting there on the OR table open.

Speaker 1: 1:05:00

It's not the best use of our time. So I'm seeing changes. I see changes that need to continue to happen. Like you were talking about the vaginal seeding there's evidence for it. We just don't know enough from the medical standpoint to make it standardized. Like then we have questions of if your group made a strep positive or what if there's stuff in the vaginal canal that we don't test for. Some of it is a little excessive in the questioning, but that's how we study things right. So we ask all the questions and then we filter them.

Speaker 1: 1:05:30

So what I notice is things start to happen around 15 years after we start seeing the evidence and everything pop up. It just takes a long time because you have to have the studies, then you have to have the hospitals hear about the studies, and then you have to have the change and the trial and error. And how do we make this work? And then, oh, that didn't work for this one and that led to a bad outcome. So how do we prevent that? It has to go through all of that process in order to become standard in hospital and then people have to be brave enough to try it.

Speaker 1: 1:06:01

So, I feel like we will eventually get there. No-transcript, so I don't even know if there's anything. Yeah, it's not common, but I have interviewed people that asked for it, got it, you know. So it's coming along, and that's just how change works. I used to be I used to be the type of person that I was like well, why don't we just do it? You?

Speaker 2: 1:06:53

know like what's stopping us right.

Speaker 1: 1:06:55

I've seen the process evolve and I appreciate what it takes and while it's still frustrating, I like to share the process because I think that going into a hospital where you've heard about a thing, the thing isn't happening is frustrating and it's easy to be judgmental and it's easy to be angry and say, well, this hospital sucks because we're not doing this. There's a lot more that goes into it and, yes, you can ask for things and we can try to get creative and work around it for that one person without making it standard policy. So there's ways around it and I want people to feel empowered to ask for things because the more we ask, the more it will come up. And especially if you're writing like a review of the hospital, like if you say something like you know, I really wish that you guys would look into vaginal seating. That would have made my experience better.

Speaker 1: 1:07:41

That kind of thing will actually help the process because more and more people are asking for the same thing. We're more likely to start doing it standard. It's going to. They're going to listen. The goal for hospitals now is to give patient-centered care. So the more you ask for what you want whether you get exactly as you pictured or you get like a part of it, the more you're teaching them how to give you individualized care. You're not being a pain in the butt, you're just showing them what people want so that they can develop a product that can give people what they want and that's hospitals or businesses too, and that's what they want.

Speaker 2: 1:08:17

Well, how about the lymphotomy position? Is that still like Less common?

Speaker 1: 1:08:22

Okay, yeah, it's less common. Most of it is like older providers that are kind of stuck in their ways that only do that. We don't use stirrups very often unless it's just for specific positioning or if the patient feels more comfortable. So personally and the nurses I work with are taught to move positions when pushing because physiologically and you know it makes sense, because physiologically and you're like you know it makes sense you have to.

Speaker 2: 1:08:50

You have to not be on the sacrum in order for the baby to move past the sacrum.

Speaker 1: 1:08:51

It's really the only way it works. And so, at the very least, if we have a provider that really wants the lithotomy position, it will. The patient will be on a tilt, but guess what, the providers aren't in there when we're pushing. We call them when the baby is crowning. They don't have time. They have to manage all the patients on the floor right, and so we're one-to-one.

Speaker 1: 1:09:12

When we're pushing, the nurse's assignment gets changed so that that nurse can be with that patient the entire time we're pushing, because they need help. So it's up to the nurse to put the patient into positions and then, when the doctor gets there, if we have to move to lithotomy because that's what makes them comfortable I'll sneak a little roll under there so that we're not flat on our sacrum, or I'll move them down, because each bed in the hospital has like a little dip and it's made for the sacrum, so like the pressure's on the top part of the sacrum so that the bottom part, the coccyx, opens up, and that's how the bed is shaped if you're all the way down to the bottom Right. So there's ways to get around that and it's really important to know.

Speaker 2: 1:09:53

Yeah, I can feel for moms because there is so much to know, so just like that's why you get support. Part of your stuff is resources. Yeah Right, get the support you need for the whole journey from like conception to one to two years postpartum, like whatever you need. But I mean pelvic floor therapists are helping and in chiropractic soup. But pelvic floor therapists are helping moms prepare for labor, right oh yeah, like they're helping them.

Speaker 2: 1:10:19

Okay, this is how you open up your pelvis, right, like you have a lot more room that you think, but there's so much fear you know so much fear I see even Facebook. I'm so scared I'm giving birth. I'm so scared there's so much fear in our media and just everywhere of giving birth. But, like, if you have a good team to say this is the things that you need to do, like, for me, I think my daughter's breech positioning was due to my sitting all day Right, if I my sitting all day, right, if I'm sitting all day, 68 hours a day, there's no space for it to move, and so some of the things they did in india, like my mom was like that was also for delivery, right, so they would.

Speaker 2: 1:10:56

Even pregnant women were sweeping like while squatting. So what are you doing? Your pelvis? You're allowing for more room, you're strengthening your pelvic floor. They didn't have pelvic floor issues, right, because they were doing exercises or practices that were their chores, that just prepared them for birth and they didn't know that. So when I have, you know, indian friends who are pregnant, listen to your moms and grandmothers. They just listen to them. They know so much. Definitely, move, do these certain yoga positions, or do these certain squatting not so close to like delivery but like these will help you prepare for labor. They'll open up your pelvis, they'll help strengthen that pelvic floor, because I know I had that pain and I can say the pelvic floor pain was very real. After the birth of my second I had a second degree tear and the pelvic floor pain was worse than like the labor, so like it can be really rough. But there are things that you can do to prepare your body for a better labor and birth experience.

Speaker 1: 1:11:55

Yeah, it's so important to prepare your body, your mind, all of the things for the birthing process and beyond and have all of those resources available.

Speaker 2: 1:12:04

When you said you know, ask questions advocate. Yeah, ask the questions. If you don't like one offer, ask is there another way? Like is? There something else I can do Is there? Do I not have to have my hands tied down? Do I? Can I eat real food for the just like?

Speaker 1: 1:12:19

there will often be other options, but we just don't know to ask yes, tell me what that was that they did for the real food option for the gestational diabetes test.

Speaker 2: 1:12:29

I think she gave me a list of items that I could choose from and she tested my blood sugar. I had the meal. She came back I don't know what it was like an hour later and retested it and so, yeah, and so I was like, well, this is a lot easier because the glucose test was like blah disgusting. And maybe it's an issue of practicality in the hospital, Maybe it's an issue of liability, Maybe it's just like food options, allergies, all of those things, and then that's why that was created.

Speaker 2: 1:12:58

But ask them like can I have real food? Can I do this? Can I, you know? Is this an option? And if it's no, then you know, then you, then you have a different path, but oftentimes there could be other options than the one that you give in well, even if you, just, like some providers, have no idea that that's being done, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1: 1:13:18

So if you bring it in and say, hey, would this be an option? Even if they say, no, yeah, you've presented it to them. Yeah, exactly. And then if the next person does the same thing, and the next person, and the next person, they're going to start really looking into it into that right.

Speaker 1: 1:13:32

So just don't be shy when it comes to asking questions like that, because if it doesn't make things change for you, it might make change that things change for the next mom, yeah, and if you have another baby, it might be that might have led to you being able to do that in your next pregnancy, right?

Speaker 2: 1:13:48

So that's how change happens. Yes, and the self-advocacy I think is really important. You don't have to just accept everything and disregard your own interest. Desires intuition, but just ask the question and at least you're not left wondering like what is?

Speaker 1: 1:14:03

Yeah, and that's kind of what I do like when I'm helping people prepare for pregnancy. If they wanted an alternative, I try to give them the common alternatives that are offered in the hospital and I give them the one next one where you can push a little right. But then I also we talk about managing expectations if we don't exactly get what we want, and also asking the questions in like a kind manner. That kind of disarms people and makes them feel instead of threatened, yeah, but kind of more like under stress or under pressure. It helps them feel more creative and they're more likely to help you if they feel creative and they feel like you're not pressuring them.

Speaker 1: 1:14:44

So, I think it's a learned skill to be able to figure out how to talk to people in order to get what you want Exactly. So to speak, it's not really a me versus them, it's a let's just be creative and talk. Yes, let's talk together. Yes, exactly. And if you use certain language, like you're talking about, you know what are the alternatives. That's what I, that's in the brain model. I'm sure your doula shared that with you. Yeah, yeah, brain model the benefits, risks, alternatives, intuition and nothing. That that kind of gets you started down the questioning of, if you've gone through the benefits and risks and it doesn't make sense to you, you can ask for the alternatives. I usually have people skip to the nothing. What would happen if I do nothing? And then, after you get all that information, what does your intuition tell you? Tell you yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1: 1:15:32

And then I go on and I usually have them talk about, I teach them the cuss words that we use in the hospital to communicate with providers, which is I'm concerned, I'm uncomfortable and this is a safety issue.

Speaker 1: 1:15:43

These are how we escalate things kindly in the hospital to get the provider to realize that you're really trying to get them to listen, because sometimes they're just stressed out and thinking about the next case that's going to, and you have no idea. You have no idea how stressed out they might be about this other patient, right, and their brain just can't bring anything else in. So when you use the words that help to disarm them but also kind of trigger them to think maybe I should pay attention to this, this might be a priority, then it helps them switch to that creative aspect of their brain where they're like, oh, you know what, yeah, this might be a good option, yeah. So I work through a lot of that when I'm coaching my clients, so that when they go to the hospital they ask in such a way that they are more likely to get what they want to get what they.

Speaker 2: 1:16:24

Yes to be received letter because the the client I had this morning. She said she was. It was against her intuition, but she was. She didn't want to be induced and she didn't think that's going to be a good idea. And it turned out not to be. And so you could, like in a disarming way, say what are my other options? What else can is possible here? What can we do instead, instead of just saying no, we're shutting it down and there might be other alternatives to that.

Speaker 1: 1:16:51

Well, yeah, and if you're like me, when you're in the situation of being a patient, you try not to make waves, because then they don't want you to be like the healthcare provider. That's a pain in the butt, right, and so I kind of I mean, I did stand my ground a little bit in my first birth, but I did kind of allow things to happen that I wasn't fully comfortable with too. So it's like you know, learning how to say those things without feeling like you're making waves is so important.

Speaker 2: 1:17:17

Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 1: 1:17:19

So before we go and before we talk about your program because we're going to, and how my listeners can access it I ask every mom this if you were to go back and talk to yourself at any time during the process of pregnancy, birth and all of that stuff and it can be either pregnancy or both what would you go back to tell yourself and where would you go? Oh wow, that's such a good question.

Speaker 2: 1:17:44

I mean, I think I would really go back to my first pregnancy and telling myself that what I experience and what I feel my baby is feeling, and it's up to me to make sure that she feels safe and she feels calm and peaceful as much as we can together, because we will journey in pregnancy together and birth and in postpartum for several years and in the first couple of years.

Speaker 2: 1:18:14

I don't know if others have shared this with you and I don't know if people would believe it, but it often felt like she could read my mind, so I'd be thinking something and she would say it, and I've heard that that's not uncommon, especially with your first, and that probably ended after she was two, which, I've heard, are the times that you're still very connected, and so knowing how much my emotional, mental health affected her is something I wish I had known at the time and something that I share with my families and friends and clients as well. That, like, take care of your heart, take care of your mind, are just as important as taking care of your body through diet and exercise. So that's what I would tell myself is don't estimate the power you have of creating this human life and all the things that they will evolve to be, and take care of that now, for yourself and for your child.

Speaker 1: 1:19:07

Yeah, learning self-care is super important as a mom and also society. Help moms.

Speaker 2: 1:19:15

Yes, please, if you see a new mom, help her. Yes, yes, don't forget, and I think we're all still surviving, right, especially if we live in America. We're all still surviving and so we might know, mom, and we might be able to do a little bit, but not as much as we would love to do. But there've been some interesting models where I've seen them match a new mom with, like, a more seasoned mom, and so maybe they work with them for three months or something until they've got their own wings to fly, but that can be really incredible. So, yes, you see a mom, help a mom out. She's struggling, you're struggling. We're all in this together and we have a lot of power as mothers, in numbers, in our strengths and our capabilities. We have a lot of power and we often forget that, but we really can change the world if we support each other and try to have the best birth, pregnancy, postpartum experiences we can have. Exactly.

Speaker 1: 1:20:12

All right, so I want to know about the online offer that you have and how people can find it.

Speaker 2: 1:20:18

Absolutely so. We have two courses. One is a mini course on specifically gas colic, specifically gas colic, and then we have a holistic course. That is, on all the issues from gas colic and sleep to congestion, teething, postpartum depression, bonding, all of those things. Our mini course is $69 and our full course is $169. They are available immediately upon purchase and for a lifetime. So if you have other kids or your parents want to come in and learn, you have access to this course. The full course has eight modules that cover legs, tummy, chest, arms, face, head, back and gentle movements, as well as some expert interviews. And then, of course, our mini course just includes the gas colic, the tummy strokes, but you will see immediate results with gas colic.

Speaker 2: 1:21:09

We often have families who say, oh, it worked beautifully. My baby tooted or my baby passed, you know whatever it was because their digestive health is so critical right to their overall health. Doctors will ask you how many diapers are they having? So we get really excited when our babies are experiencing healthy digestion, and so you can find all of that information on our website at vianainfantmassagecom, and there you'll find information both about our baby massage offerings as well as our belly binding. But our online component is the baby massage. That is our passion and our purpose that's amazing.

Speaker 1: 1:21:48

I love that, and we'll have that in the show notes with a link. Kathy, thank you so much for joining me. I could talk to you all day I know right, I love this stuff.

Speaker 2: 1:21:57

I've become such a birthing geek, yeah right there with you yeah, all right. Thank you, kelly, for all that you do and for having me on same. To you, thank you.